Quite right and I've logged my objections on saftey, green and fitness for disabled persons grounds
Change in e-bike legislation
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Ignorance is bliss, but I am fully aware that I am riding around on an illegal ebike everytime I take my 190rpm Synapse out, do I worry or am I bothered? Nah, otherwise I wouldn't have chosen the illegal option to start with.
Does this make me a criminal? For wanting a couple more mph on the flat? I can actually pedal faster than the motor anyway on the flat, so it kind of makes it a farce !
Where I come from pardner, men have been shot for less....then I pedal away into the sunset.
It'll be last stand at the O.K. Corral if the feds try to bring me in, I'll take some with me in a blaze of gloryWhere I come from pardner, men have been shot for less....then I pedal away into the sunset.
And all because the UK/Euro Bureau's want to spoil our fun !
I lived in France for several years and found they deal with this kind of thing quite well. If it doesn't seem very sensible, they ignore it.
Unfortunately, with the plod fulfilling targets in the UK, this is the sort of legislation they can use to cop middle class folk who will 'fess up and give them without argument the convictions their targets require.
It seems to me that provided an e-bike goes no faster than one could reasonably expect a bicyle to go, no rules are needed.
On the other hand, some people here seem to want e-bikes to be powered above 20 or so mph. Speaking for myself, in London I find the cycle lanes often used by motor scooters and small motor cyces who beep you to get out of the way....I don't want to see them augmented by hordes of e-bikers on powerful bikes adding to the melee.
If you can pedal faster, well and good, there's a difference between attaining 20+mph under your own power and maintaining it without personal effort.
Unfortunately, with the plod fulfilling targets in the UK, this is the sort of legislation they can use to cop middle class folk who will 'fess up and give them without argument the convictions their targets require.
It seems to me that provided an e-bike goes no faster than one could reasonably expect a bicyle to go, no rules are needed.
On the other hand, some people here seem to want e-bikes to be powered above 20 or so mph. Speaking for myself, in London I find the cycle lanes often used by motor scooters and small motor cyces who beep you to get out of the way....I don't want to see them augmented by hordes of e-bikers on powerful bikes adding to the melee.
If you can pedal faster, well and good, there's a difference between attaining 20+mph under your own power and maintaining it without personal effort.
Do cycle lanes have a speed limit? It seems to me they should if petrol driven mopeds are allowed down them !
Maybe they should complicate the rules further and restrict the speed of ebikes for city areas and allow a different speed limit for the countryside.
Edit: the speed of the Synapse 190rpm motor is around 16-18mph, not 20+ and due to the freewheel capability of the bike it's very easy with moderate effort to exceed the motor power (on the flat
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I've been using my ebike for the past couple of weeks on a daily basis to get to work. My average speed on the flat is 20mph, and I have been passed on 3 separate occasions by police cars. They didn't even look at me.
I think that as long as you are riding safely, and not doing the common "naughty cyclist stuff" (running red lights, mounting pavement, etc), the police have little reason to stop you.
Due to the fact that I can get up to speed so much easier now, I am automatically riding in a safer manner, because I am no longer needing to do things to try to maintain momentum. I'm actually happy to slow down and stop at places where I used to simply ignore the traffic signals or signs. I also no longer get road rage when an inconsiderate motorist pulls out and forces me to slow down.
I think that as long as you are riding safely, and not doing the common "naughty cyclist stuff" (running red lights, mounting pavement, etc), the police have little reason to stop you.
Due to the fact that I can get up to speed so much easier now, I am automatically riding in a safer manner, because I am no longer needing to do things to try to maintain momentum. I'm actually happy to slow down and stop at places where I used to simply ignore the traffic signals or signs. I also no longer get road rage when an inconsiderate motorist pulls out and forces me to slow down.
Hi Scott, I trust you are keeping well!
You are missing the point all together. The UK rules governing electric bicycles are going to be changed whether we like it or not. The consultation document was not blindly put forward by BEBA, it was issued by DfT warning that the regs are about to be changed. BEBA is simply trying to encourage the government to give us the regs we all want.
As a matter of interest, I am with you, we at Wisper would far rather cherry pick from the UK and EU regs. Although according to ETRA if a rider or supplier was hauled up in front of the beak they would probably get away with using one set of regs or the other but would not have a leg to stand on if they were to have taken a rule from one set of regs and another rule from the other.
FYI, BEBA have proposed that the DfT increase the current permissible power from 200 to 250W whilst keeping the throttle available up to 15.5mph making what we have been getting away with in the UK fully legal. Unfortunately the Kalkhoff S series would still not be permitted outside Germany. However BEBA and ETRA have both proposed a second set of regs for a fast electric bike that would enable us all to produce an S series and ride it legally anywhere in Europe.
It is fine to be cavalier here on Pedelecs but the truth is, anyone caught riding an electric bike which is outside either the UK or European regulations may well be prosecuted for at the very least, driving whilst uninsured, without tax and MOT, they may even be done for driving without a valid licence. These offences can all carry a driving ban. No problem of course if you only use an electric bike!
Worst case scenario is a rider on an illegal pedelec has or causes a serious accident and the whole pedelec special case is reviewed. We would all suffer.
Invitations to join BEBA are going out next week and 50 Cycles are on the top of the list to take up full membership! I hope you will join us in trying to make sure the changes to the current UK regulations are positive changes.
All the best
David
I've been waiting for this invitation for 3 months now David... not a whisper.
Why the Changes?
There are two reasons why the law on EAPCs is to change.
The first has been hovering in the background for over six years with the DfT hoping it might go away. That was the fact that the British Government failed to fully obey a EU mandatory order issued to them on 9th May 2003, requiring cancellation of our 1983 national EAPC regulations within six months. Page 2, paragraph 3 of the consultation document refers:
"Failure to align could result in legal challenge to our national rules by the European Commission".
The second reason is that the Royal Mail's intention to start using EAPCs on a large scale prompted them to ask for the confusion of our dual law situation to be cleared up before they proceeded. This has forced the hand of the DfT, hence the action now.
One way or another, it was inevitable that this measure would have to take place eventually.
.
There are two reasons why the law on EAPCs is to change.
The first has been hovering in the background for over six years with the DfT hoping it might go away. That was the fact that the British Government failed to fully obey a EU mandatory order issued to them on 9th May 2003, requiring cancellation of our 1983 national EAPC regulations within six months. Page 2, paragraph 3 of the consultation document refers:
"Failure to align could result in legal challenge to our national rules by the European Commission".
The second reason is that the Royal Mail's intention to start using EAPCs on a large scale prompted them to ask for the confusion of our dual law situation to be cleared up before they proceeded. This has forced the hand of the DfT, hence the action now.
One way or another, it was inevitable that this measure would have to take place eventually.
.
Flecc is right, it was a Royal Mail that wanted to use a Cycles Maximus Cargo Trikes for their deliveries, theonly problem was that CM trikes weighted 120kg each and the EAPC allows only 60kg limit for the tricycles. Since then the Royal Mail made an enquiry with the DFT and found out they can not use it.
EU is also different story and Flecc is right here of what is going on
Last I heard, the Royal Mail is planning to phase out all those Pashley bicycles completely and have their posties use vans on their rounds. There's a petition against it somewhere online....
here's more on that story Petition promotes preservation of Pashley-pedalling posties | road.cc | The website for pedal powered people: Road cycling, commuting, leisure cycling and racing
We went to some of the early meetings with the Royal Mail and one of those invited to tender stood up to say that he'd been through a similar process years before, with the Royal Mail looking for electric bikes, which came to nothing after a great deal of expense. It was quite a rant, but turns out he was right.
Perfectly true Tim, with the passage of time the Royal Mail have changed their mind. However, their prior request for the EAPC regulations to be sorted out had already been put in hand in 2008 and placed on the "to do" list, with the DfT indicating that the pressures on legislative time meant a two to three year delay. The current intention is right on schedule since it's likely to come to fruition at about the two and a half year point.
Since it was inevitable that the EAPC laws confusion would have to be cleared up one day, the Royal Mail change of mind would be unlikely to cancel the DfT's plans to carry that out.
.
Since it was inevitable that the EAPC laws confusion would have to be cleared up one day, the Royal Mail change of mind would be unlikely to cancel the DfT's plans to carry that out.
.
To BEBA or not to BEBA
Hi Scott, thanks for your response, let me take your comments one by one.
"That is all well and good but I do not think this body will make the slightest bit of difference. If anything it will be counter productive highlighting points that they probably knew nothing about in the first place.
The consultants undertaking this task will not be at all interested in what benefits retailers or consumers. More likely in the current climate they will clamp down on the points you mention on the grounds of health and safety and a lack of user experience."
It may be true that the consultation process is a complete waste of time, only time will tell. However I believe that the arguments put forward by BEBA and others regarding the safety and accessibility considerations in respect of keeping throttles will at the very least be considered. If BEBA fails in it's request at least BEBA will have made the effort. If BEBA manage to persuade the DfT to allow us to keep the throttle we will all benefit.
May I draw your attention to this comment in your last post?
"This is all fine for the main bikes that we sell because they come from Europe under that regulation but I like to have the choice to jump on my old E-bike to whizz down the shops. Or the ablilty to offer our customers the option of a bike if they cannot pedal at all due to illness."
As I have previously stated, we too want to keep the throttle hence our pro active involvement. It is too easy to sit back and accept what you consider to be the inevitable and then moan about it afterwards.
I was not suggesting that anybody should use all the rules at once if in the unlikely event they were having to defend themselves in a court of law due to an accident. However under the current legislation it is hard to clarify at what point the motor is 200 or 250 watts on a full powered bike due to the ambiguity of how the motor peaks and troughs its wattage level. For example the ezee bikes use to peak at over 500W and sure the Wisper does as well. The new certifcation will enable the law to measure this and apply a certificate to each model. How this is tested would be very counter productive to all in the industry except those bikes made in Europe."
Are you in favour of a peak power of 250W? Are you saying Kalkhoff and I Zip have such a low peak power, I doubt it? We at Wisper are certainly against such a proposal and believe both the current regulations are sufficient to kerb the enthusiasm of the more adventurous. Indeed through ETRA we are striving to have the 250W rated max increased to 350W especially for the less able and to assist people wanting to tow trailers full of groceries back from the supermarket. And yes Wisper motors currently peak at more than 500W.
"We do not feel the need for 50cycles to join BEBA simply for the fact that we do not need an external body telling us that we need to provide a good service etc. I feel our company set the prescedent of providing one of the happiest service in the Bicycle industry. We are gold members of the Association of Cycle Traders and the IOD so do not feel BEBA offers any benefits that ACT or the IOD does not offer already."
I am saddened that you don't want to become involved in the British Electric Bicycle Association it has taken a lot of time and effort to set up and will be a great voice in the industry concentrating on the electric bike side of cycling. As a matter of interest BEBA are currently working with ACT on an electric bike training module for the Cytech NVQ and Wisper are currently joining as an associate member. We too believe ACT are doing a fantastic job and want to work with them. I am so sure where the IOD fit in?
BEBA would not dream of trying to tell you how to offer good service or run your company. 50 Cycles certainly now has an excellent record in this respect, otherwise BEBA would not be making the invitation. Amongst BEBA's goals is to inform the public about companies such as 50 Cycles that offer decent legal bikes with a decent level of service. We intend the BEBA mark to be a sign of excellence awarded only to companies who offer this level of service. Too many IBD's and members of the public have a poor view of the electric bike industry because of the shoddy service and poor equipment offered in the past.
"I feel that if a group should be representing the industry at all it should be David Henshaw of AtoB who has been fighting this campaign before we even knew what electric bikes were."
There is no doubt David has done, and is doing more than anyone to promote the use of Electric Bikes in the UK. As you know we at Wisper support the A to B magazine and believe David's frank and honest reporting is just what the market needs. I have asked David if he would like to become involved in BEBA and the offer will remain open at all times. Unfortunately David has a very busy schedule and may not always be able to attend meetings, he certainly would not have time to start an association or run it.
It has taken 100's of hours of our time along with Mark from Urban Mover, Ultra Motor, Andy from On Bike (Ezee and E Motion), Matt and Aiden from E Bikes Direct (Gipida) and Sabine Raabe and Lord Laird from Biscuit PR to set BEBA up. It is so, so simple to sit on the side lines and criticise others that are making an effort. We all at BEBA fervently believe that the Electric Bicycle industry needs a voice and despite your comments would like to see you on board, however if it is not your wish to participate we absolutely respect your decision.
Tim yes it has take a long time to set up and now far from whisper, we intend to shout about it!
As always, best regards
David
Hi Scott, thanks for your response, let me take your comments one by one.
"That is all well and good but I do not think this body will make the slightest bit of difference. If anything it will be counter productive highlighting points that they probably knew nothing about in the first place.
The consultants undertaking this task will not be at all interested in what benefits retailers or consumers. More likely in the current climate they will clamp down on the points you mention on the grounds of health and safety and a lack of user experience."
It may be true that the consultation process is a complete waste of time, only time will tell. However I believe that the arguments put forward by BEBA and others regarding the safety and accessibility considerations in respect of keeping throttles will at the very least be considered. If BEBA fails in it's request at least BEBA will have made the effort. If BEBA manage to persuade the DfT to allow us to keep the throttle we will all benefit.
May I draw your attention to this comment in your last post?
"This is all fine for the main bikes that we sell because they come from Europe under that regulation but I like to have the choice to jump on my old E-bike to whizz down the shops. Or the ablilty to offer our customers the option of a bike if they cannot pedal at all due to illness."
As I have previously stated, we too want to keep the throttle hence our pro active involvement. It is too easy to sit back and accept what you consider to be the inevitable and then moan about it afterwards.
I was not suggesting that anybody should use all the rules at once if in the unlikely event they were having to defend themselves in a court of law due to an accident. However under the current legislation it is hard to clarify at what point the motor is 200 or 250 watts on a full powered bike due to the ambiguity of how the motor peaks and troughs its wattage level. For example the ezee bikes use to peak at over 500W and sure the Wisper does as well. The new certifcation will enable the law to measure this and apply a certificate to each model. How this is tested would be very counter productive to all in the industry except those bikes made in Europe."
Are you in favour of a peak power of 250W? Are you saying Kalkhoff and I Zip have such a low peak power, I doubt it? We at Wisper are certainly against such a proposal and believe both the current regulations are sufficient to kerb the enthusiasm of the more adventurous. Indeed through ETRA we are striving to have the 250W rated max increased to 350W especially for the less able and to assist people wanting to tow trailers full of groceries back from the supermarket. And yes Wisper motors currently peak at more than 500W.
"We do not feel the need for 50cycles to join BEBA simply for the fact that we do not need an external body telling us that we need to provide a good service etc. I feel our company set the prescedent of providing one of the happiest service in the Bicycle industry. We are gold members of the Association of Cycle Traders and the IOD so do not feel BEBA offers any benefits that ACT or the IOD does not offer already."
I am saddened that you don't want to become involved in the British Electric Bicycle Association it has taken a lot of time and effort to set up and will be a great voice in the industry concentrating on the electric bike side of cycling. As a matter of interest BEBA are currently working with ACT on an electric bike training module for the Cytech NVQ and Wisper are currently joining as an associate member. We too believe ACT are doing a fantastic job and want to work with them. I am so sure where the IOD fit in?
BEBA would not dream of trying to tell you how to offer good service or run your company. 50 Cycles certainly now has an excellent record in this respect, otherwise BEBA would not be making the invitation. Amongst BEBA's goals is to inform the public about companies such as 50 Cycles that offer decent legal bikes with a decent level of service. We intend the BEBA mark to be a sign of excellence awarded only to companies who offer this level of service. Too many IBD's and members of the public have a poor view of the electric bike industry because of the shoddy service and poor equipment offered in the past.
"I feel that if a group should be representing the industry at all it should be David Henshaw of AtoB who has been fighting this campaign before we even knew what electric bikes were."
There is no doubt David has done, and is doing more than anyone to promote the use of Electric Bikes in the UK. As you know we at Wisper support the A to B magazine and believe David's frank and honest reporting is just what the market needs. I have asked David if he would like to become involved in BEBA and the offer will remain open at all times. Unfortunately David has a very busy schedule and may not always be able to attend meetings, he certainly would not have time to start an association or run it.
It has taken 100's of hours of our time along with Mark from Urban Mover, Ultra Motor, Andy from On Bike (Ezee and E Motion), Matt and Aiden from E Bikes Direct (Gipida) and Sabine Raabe and Lord Laird from Biscuit PR to set BEBA up. It is so, so simple to sit on the side lines and criticise others that are making an effort. We all at BEBA fervently believe that the Electric Bicycle industry needs a voice and despite your comments would like to see you on board, however if it is not your wish to participate we absolutely respect your decision.
Tim yes it has take a long time to set up and now far from whisper, we intend to shout about it!
As always, best regards
David
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Any plans on securing a BEBA website URL for the future David?
I see there's already:
British Egyptian Business Association [BEBA] using beba.org.eg/
BEBA: Building and Enhancing Bonding and Attachment using beba.org/
narrowing the options. Zycon Domains have beba.org.uk for sale.
.
I see there's already:
British Egyptian Business Association [BEBA] using beba.org.eg/
BEBA: Building and Enhancing Bonding and Attachment using beba.org/
narrowing the options. Zycon Domains have beba.org.uk for sale.
.
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Does anyone think that the current legislated speed restriction is hampering the take-up of ebikes in the UK?
One of the main benefits for spending £1000+ on an ebike I see being marketed in the UK is the fact that you can dump the car, save money on fuel and still carry on with life's essentials as normal, e.g. commute and shop.
In order to make a cultural shift in peoples perceptions of ebikes from being heavy, slow, low range machines for old people, surely there must be some other incentive to get on an ebike.
Let's face it, we have/are going the way of the Merkins, we are getting lazier and fatter and your average car driver does not, initially, want to put much effort into cycling up to 20 miles (40 miles round trip) to work.
If the law allowed ebikes to match the Merkins at 20mph, more with pedal assist, and a round trip of 40 miles could be completed without too much effort and without charging, then I believe that a 1hour or less commute in this way would be much more attractive to the average eurobox driver.
Limiting ebikes to 15.5mph means about 1.5 hours commute, unappealing for many and is very unlikely to entice people out of their cars (until the oil price skyrockets). I suspect for those of us that are enlightened to the ebike world, we tolerate the law as it stands, anymore restrictions on the use of our bikes will only make them less enticing ? Until there are better incentives to get people on ebikes, then they will remain niche market, despite anticipated growth.
Yesterday, I rode a Trek 7.k with a Bionx 250 kit fitted (imported from EU) and was impressed with it's variable assist and simplicity, I could see many buying this bike and then punching in the de-restrict codes, what a daft situation to have lots of illegal ebikers on the roads.
One of the main benefits for spending £1000+ on an ebike I see being marketed in the UK is the fact that you can dump the car, save money on fuel and still carry on with life's essentials as normal, e.g. commute and shop.
In order to make a cultural shift in peoples perceptions of ebikes from being heavy, slow, low range machines for old people, surely there must be some other incentive to get on an ebike.
Let's face it, we have/are going the way of the Merkins, we are getting lazier and fatter and your average car driver does not, initially, want to put much effort into cycling up to 20 miles (40 miles round trip) to work.
If the law allowed ebikes to match the Merkins at 20mph, more with pedal assist, and a round trip of 40 miles could be completed without too much effort and without charging, then I believe that a 1hour or less commute in this way would be much more attractive to the average eurobox driver.
Limiting ebikes to 15.5mph means about 1.5 hours commute, unappealing for many and is very unlikely to entice people out of their cars (until the oil price skyrockets). I suspect for those of us that are enlightened to the ebike world, we tolerate the law as it stands, anymore restrictions on the use of our bikes will only make them less enticing ? Until there are better incentives to get people on ebikes, then they will remain niche market, despite anticipated growth.
Yesterday, I rode a Trek 7.k with a Bionx 250 kit fitted (imported from EU) and was impressed with it's variable assist and simplicity, I could see many buying this bike and then punching in the de-restrict codes, what a daft situation to have lots of illegal ebikers on the roads.
Not at all, it is only electrically assisted pedal bicycles subject to these restrictions. And besides, you can go faster if you wish, you just need to pedal.
There are plenty of faster electric 2 wheelers available - for example (and picked at random) if that is what you want.
ESHO HUSH 2000W 48V ELECTRIC SCOOTERS (GREEN/WHITE) Leisure Find Electric Bikes and Mopeds Buy UK
I think the e-bike legislation is about right, myself because we are talking push bikes with assistance.
E-bikes are allowed to use bike lanes - how could that be allowed if they would 30 or 40mph as a sustainable top speed?
E-bikes have been sensibly legislated for, as have people who wish to buy faster electric vehicles. What some people seem to want are all the tax, parking and freedom advantages of a bicycle with the power and speed of a motor vehicle.
It ain't gonna happen and, in my view, neither should it.
Interestingly, I've found that the reaction of car drivers I've spoken to about my bike has altered depending on the top speed I mention. They are pretty non-plussed when I say that the legal limit is 15.5mph, but when I say my bike is capable of around 20mph they get a lot more interested. My point is that the psychological difference seems out of proportion with the actual difference in speed.
The only way I can account for this is that people can imagine driving at a constant 20mph, it being one of the road speed limits, and think it's quite nippy for a bike, but 15mph is simply a speed that is passed through when setting off or stopping, and so has little frame of reference.
From this observation, I'd say that a legal limit of 20mph may be more of an incentive to get people out of their cars.
I do agree though that an ebike should be primarily a bicycle, and so the power limitation should stay as it is.
The only way I can account for this is that people can imagine driving at a constant 20mph, it being one of the road speed limits, and think it's quite nippy for a bike, but 15mph is simply a speed that is passed through when setting off or stopping, and so has little frame of reference.
From this observation, I'd say that a legal limit of 20mph may be more of an incentive to get people out of their cars.
I do agree though that an ebike should be primarily a bicycle, and so the power limitation should stay as it is.
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