Can anyone compare these two bikes.

[flecc]

Any hub system can use a TS BB & controller kit instead of cadence, the issue why most don't use them is the price at about 2.5 - 3 X that of the best cadence system control kits available which tend to be KT & Lishui.

Giant and Stromer have used inexpensive torque sensors with hub motors, basically simple strain gauges, in both cases fitted into a modified rear dropout. Unusually the Giant Twist used their rear dropout sensor with a front hub motor, but it was praised for how well it worked.

The version pictured below is the Stromer one:

 

[lightning]

The future may be a hub motor with a built in (say) 10 speed gearbox.

Only issue would be the weight of the wheel, but you'd probably not notice too much on an ebike.

 

[georgehenry]

Its not only that you can use your gears on a crank drive bike to better optimise the efficiency of the motor when climbing that makes crank drive bikes superior off road it is their weight distribution with the motor low and in the centre of the bike. Having a heavy weight in the rear wheel off road effects the handling detrimentally.

 

[soundwave]

well the easy fix of a ne freehub is out the window as the drive side spacer is jammed on the axle and cant even shift it with a vice there race face wheels with a shitmano hub and with no cassette the wheel on its own is 1980g

so now going to cost about 80 quid for a new hub free hub and axle as cant find the spacer that is jammed on there and might damage the axle removing it but mofo is going on a lath tomoz so that free hub is coming off like it or not

just imagen buying a bike like this and taking it to a ebike shop to get sorted it would take forever or just say needs a new wheel.

tho he did try a lbs but they just said £280 for a new hub plus the wheel build on top on a rim that has damage from a rock hit no thanks lol.

can get a demax dh wheel for 330 for the rear but then need to change the disc rotor

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[lightning]

lt should be possible to produce a mid-drive motor that is

a/reliable
b/serviceable if it does break or wear out
c/waterproof

 

[soundwave]

lt should be possible to produce a mid-drive motor that is

a/reliable
b/serviceable if it does break or wear out
c/waterproof

eddie pj no longer posts on here or he sank in a bog somewhere but destroyed every bosch motor he had and had a fs ktm b4 that bike.

tho he did wait until it was pi$$ing down with rain and rode up and down mud trails half the wheel deep and sold the fs when the warranty ended with a new motor of course

eMTB owners photo and ride thread.

Please respect forum rules, and my own personal choice by ensuring that only UK legal emtb's are posted within this thread. Please use the Speed pedelecs (S-Pedelecs), Non-EAPCs section for all other bikes, including those fitted with dongles. If you do not happen to agree with the above, please...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

 

[lightning]

That's the thing, it's a mountain bike, the motor should be able to cope with that.

lt's not fit for purpose! Having said that my Kona has looked like that at times and has been washed with a hose (not a jet wash) including the motor at least fifty times and the much criticised Shimano E8000 motor is still running perfectly with smooth bearings and no untoward noises.

 

[guerney]

My bbs01b was completely submerged unexpectedly, after a sudden thunderstorm - all of a sudden there was a pond in the road when I cycled around a bend... 15 second submersion with the water level over both pedals, but I managed to PAS myself out. Motor worked fine, some water dribbled out. Then I covered every connector on the bike with self-amalgamating rubber tape. When replacing my self-knackered controller some months later (I'd knackered it myself by accident... bad soldering skills which have much improved since ), I couldn't see any sign of water having ever been inside it. The original seal was pretty good, I'll be covering connecting faces of the controller and motor using heat resistant silicone soon, after I grease the gears with Aeroshell 22.

But the important thing is that I didn't end up floating belly up in the pond, like a fish zapped by an electric eel.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

lt should be possible to produce a mid-drive motor that is

a/reliable
b/serviceable if it does break or wear out
c/waterproof

I'm not too sure about reliable but it rely depends on how you judge reliability but a small motor operating at very high rpm through a series of cogs and sometimes belts and then used with a chain based drivetrain would surely always mean a high wear rate and more stressed components. Yes you can make it so overbuilt it won't fail but then you have a very weighty motor that is inefficient and needs a much more powerful battery all adding extreme amounts to costs.

Mid-drive will remain the best performance option which is especially necessary for e-mountain bikes but has debatable value for an everyday commuting bike in my opinion.

However mid-drive and proprietary often get combined because of most of the high end mid-drive solutions. No reason for mid-drive not to be easy to service and repair and have low running costs really. No reason replacement bearings, nylon cogs and a belt can't be cheap to buy and easy to fit. I personally would prefer a solution where parts don't wear down as fast or fail so often especially for general cycling but there is no reason at all why a mid-drive motor should destroy itself and then have the owner face a £1000 plus replacement charge like many Brose owners have had to endure. Most hub based ebikes just get on with it basically often their owners aren't even that interested in them, they just charge them up and use them and charge again.

 

[Woosh]

Not quite true, it's fashion as much as anything.

From the 1970s to 2001 it was nearly all crank drives with the odd friction drive onto the tyres.

Then from 2002 to 2007 the market switched almost entirely to wheel hub motors, so entirely so that the main maker of a crank drive, Panasonic, discontinued theirs and the runner up, Yamaha, stopped selling them in Britain by 2003.

Then in 2008 two German makers, first Daum, then Bosch, introduced crank drive motor units and the market increasingly swung that way.

They both have the advantages and disadvantages and differences in applications and I've owned both simultaneously for those reasons. The odd sensible makers realise that, notably long established Wisper for example, so they market quality models with a choice of either, satisfying both needs.
.

It seems to me that the 'natural feel' is more of the product of current control as opposed to speed control when the sensor is a simple cadence sensor.
With current control, the amount of extra push you get from the electronics is steady, based on your selection of the assist level. This natural feel shows up very clearly on the lowest assist levels (1, 2, and 3). On level 1 or 2 , you only get a gentle push off on start with current control.
By the way, the Woosh Camino and Woosh Gran Camino can be programmed for speed control (default, quicker acceleration at starting off) or current control for those who like the natural feel.

 

[guerney]

It seems to me that the 'natural feel' is more of the product of current control as opposed to speed control when the sensor is a simple cadence sensor.
With current control, the amount of extra push you get from the electronics is steady, based on your selection of the assist level. This natural feel shows up very clearly on the lowest assist levels (1, 2, and 3). On level 1 or 2 , you only get a gentle push off on start with current control.

I think you're right - my bbs01b's lowest PAS level of 9, is set to 8% of 15A, which feels just a bit more than required to overcome motor resistance and conversion kit weight. At that level my bike feels about as naturally hard to pedal, as it was before conversion. The other low levels 2 to 4 (the way I've set mine up in firmware) also feel natural with a very gradual onset of current set. Gradually increasing current also makes making U-turns safer. However, at my usual level 9 at 100% PAS at 15A, I supernaturally feel like Superman... and I much prefer feeling like Superman

 

[nigelbb]

The problem that I have with cadence sensors is the lack of feedback through the pedals so that my pedalling isn't contributing anything. I find the torque sensor on my Wisper 705 feels much more natural just like I have stronger legs. It's particularly noticeable starting from rest as I get an extra push from the motor as soon as I push on the pedals & not have wait for half a rotation or more.

 

[lightning]

My folding ebike has a boost button on the right handlebar to provide assistance when starting off, and it's really useful particularly on hills.

This is on the Mirider but l'm sure it could be fitted to other bikes as it has a standard controller.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

The problem that I have with cadence sensors is the lack of feedback through the pedals so that my pedalling isn't contributing anything. I find the torque sensor on my Wisper 705 feels much more natural just like I have stronger legs. It's particularly noticeable starting from rest as I get an extra push from the motor as soon as I push on the pedals & not have wait for half a rotation or more.

I’m delighted you are enjoying your Wisper with TTP! We have boost throttles in all our bikes which can give a little help and once pedalling will boost up to 15.5 mph, but there is no doubt a Torque Sensor adds another level of control and natural riding experience.

All the best, David

 

[lightning]

The lack of a torque sensor doesn't seem to be an issue on the Mirider, it rides great.

l assume the Mirider is nothing special and is the same as other hub drive folding bikes.

 

[guerney]

My folding ebike has a boost button on the right handlebar to provide assistance when starting off, and it's really useful particularly on hills.

Is your boost button a throttle?

 

[Woosh]

The lack of a torque sensor doesn't seem to be an issue on the Mirider, it rides great.

l assume the Mirider is nothing special and is the same as other hub drive folding bikes.

agreed.
the torque sensor is not so great on steep hills unless your bike has a full throttle, as the motor's output increases with your input, you have to pedal harder to get more out of the motor.
Cadence sensor lets you choose how hard you pedal, so it's an advantage if you have an impaired knee for example.
You'll get used to your bike and stop thinking about the difference quite soon really.

 

[matthewslack]

Is your boost button a throttle?

I'm guessing it invokes walk assist to get going from standstill.

 

[guerney]

I'm guessing it invokes walk assist to get going from standstill.

If the boost button increases the bike's speed beyond 6km/h, whether it's being pedalled or not - it's a throttle of sorts, not a walk assist?

Edit: According to this manual, the boost button is a throttle up to 25km/h:

https://mirider.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/MiRider-Intro-Manual-Feb.pdf

 

[Wisper Bikes]

There seems to be some confusion regarding BOOST buttons.

Legally there is no such thing as a BOOST button or throttle to get the rider moving without pedalling on an EAPC. To use the 4mph boost or throttle the rider should not be seated on the bike, it's a walk along mode. However, many riders use this facility to give themselves a quick boost to get them moving and quite frankly who is going to care? The reason that the walk along facility is there at all is as follows: When the throttle was outlawed, we (the pro throttlers) argued that electric post trolly vehicles had a walk along facility to help postmen all over Europe to move the post. If the throttle was going to be removed all together it would effectively outlaw all these post trollies. So... we were allowed to keep the walk assist up to 4mph, it is not a BOOST button or throttle.

Throttles can be fitted legally to an EAPC through the Type Approval process, but strictly speaking any bike that can propel the rider along at any speed without turning the pedals is illegal unless it has been certified Type Approved.

All the best, David