Can anyone compare these two bikes.

I am down to a choice of two bikes now, I am 60+ and need reasonable range mtb in the £1200 range and I know basically the level of bike that will get me. I need it to be comfortable off road, just gravel, canal, light trail so nothing too taxing with a reasonable range. I am ready to order either a Rockrider 500 or NCM Moscow, has anyone had experience of either of these two bikes ? I know both had some improvements from early models but looking for someone who could enlighten me more.

 

Thanks Goto

I am down to a choice of two bikes now, I am 60+ and need reasonable range mtb in the £1200 range and I know basically the level of bike that will get me. I need it to be comfortable off road, just gravel, canal, light trail so nothing too taxing with a reasonable range. I am ready to order either a Rockrider 500 or NCM Moscow, has anyone had experience of either of these two bikes ? I know both had some improvements from early models but looking for someone who could enlighten me more.

 

Thanks Goto

I could only fnd the NCM Moscow online with pictures, but assuming the Rockrider is also a rear Hub bike for the moment only, you should be mostly OK with either.

The only Rockrider 500 I could find was not electric.....

The things to avoid are things like middle motors (single point of failure, leading to long walks home!), CANBUS systems linking up all the electronics and motor, which prevent you making repairs, replacements and adjustments yourself!

I also bought a cheap Chinese built, generic e-bike some 5 years ago (after riding a cheap secondhand import e-bike, for almost 8 years, also with no problems!), and other than some teething problems after delivery, that I eventually got fixed by the importer, I paid in total less than 1,000 UK Pounds (but here in Germany), including import taxes and transport fees, which included all the offered extras (except GPS Tracker), and a second battery.

That same model is still on sale worldwide, with some minor improvements over mine...

Other than disk pads, tyres and tube replacements, and needing to make the controller water proof, I have had as good as no problems.

The money I saved, I put aside for anticipated problems, which it has not been used for till now at least, as I have ridden problem free. I use the bike it up to 4 times daily, as I have no car anymore.

I am sure that you will also get some great times with either of your choices.

Maybe someone here has more extensive personal knowledge of either or both bikes, that can help you further, better than I can, hopefully.

TIP:- if you are over 21, do get full suspension and at least slightly fat tyres, as when you are a few years older, you will be most happy that you did!!!

Then you can NEVER call your bike a "bone-shaker"!

Best wishes

Andy

PS. Do not forget that if you are not DIY minded, a good guarantee and a local bike shop to carry it out is needed....

PPS. Dis you possibly mean this bike?

E Mountainbike E-ST 500 V2 27,5 Zoll schwarz/blau

Edited April 25, 20223 yr by Andy-Mat

I could only fnd the NCM Moscow online with pictures, but assuming the Rockrider is also a rear Hub bike for the moment only, you should be mostly OK with either.

The only Rockrider 500 I could find was not electric.....

The things to avoid are things like middle motors (single point of failure, leading to long walks home!), CANBUS systems linking up all the electronics and motor, which prevent you making repairs, replacements and adjustments yourself!

I also bought a cheap Chinese built, generic e-bike some 5 years ago (after riding a cheap secondhand import e-bike, for almost 8 years, also with no problems!), and other than some teething problems after delivery, that I eventually got fixed by the importer, I paid in total less than 1,000 UK Pounds (but here in Germany), including import taxes and transport fees, which included all the offered extras (except GPS Tracker), and a second battery.

That same model is still on sale worldwide, with some minor improvements over mine...

Other than disk pads, tyres and tube replacements, and needing to make the controller water proof, I have had as good as no problems.

The money I saved, I put aside for anticipated problems, which it has not been used for till now at least, as I have ridden problem free. I use the bike it up to 4 times daily, as I have no car anymore.

I am sure that you will also get some great times with either of your choices.

Maybe someone here has more extensive personal knowledge of either or both bikes, that can help you further, better than I can, hopefully.

TIP:- if you are over 21, do get full suspension and at least slightly fat tyres, as when you are a few years older, you will be most happy that you did!!!

Then you can NEVER call your bike a "bone-shaker"!

Best wishes

Andy

PS. Do not forget that if you are not DIY minded, a good guarantee and a local bike shop to carry it out is needed....

PPS. Dis you possibly mean this bike?

E Mountainbike E-ST 500 V2 27,5 Zoll schwarz/blau

 

Hi Thanks for your reply, yes it the st500 v2 from decathlon.

 

Goto

If it was me I'd go with the Moscow, bigger battery (and reasonably priced replacements/spares on Aliexpress available), more torque

The only slight doubt I'd have is the level of support from Leon Cycles in the event of a warranty claim, do your research beforehand

And don't worry about the 'middle motor single point of failure' nonsense.. There are so many single points of failure in any bike that one more makes no difference. Andy just hates Bosch (and others) though what they ever did to him is not obvious.

And don't worry about the 'middle motor single point of failure' nonsense.. There are so many single points of failure in any bike that one more makes no difference. Andy just hates Bosch (and others) though what they ever did to him is not obvious.

 

I don't think its hate its just mid-drive is overly complicated and delivers its power through the drivetrain making it a higher performance but more troublesome and higher cost ebike solution. I went into a bike shop today to have a nose, not a ebike to be seen for less than £3k and none that didn't have a mid-drive motor. It was the bikechain bike shop in Taunton. I couldn't see an inner tube for less than £8 either. You don't always have to pay through the nose to get the best product. I personally couldn't see a single bike in the shop that was good value and worth buying.

nothing wrong with mid drive motors my old bosch performance motor was 8 years old and just needed new bearings and a new transfer gear and would be as good as new for 150 quid if i done it myself or peter can do it for 280.

 

problem with these bikes is locked can bus programming so you cant change any motor settings like a bafang and you have no option to buy there rip off batts as cant be recelled, well they can but it would just cost more than a bosch batt new anyway.

all of them use can bus bar yamaha as they use uart programming so a batt recell is possible but you need the chip to do it but out of stock atm.

 

yamaha also sell the controller boards and some of the metal gears where near all of the other motor brands dont sell anything at all service wise not even bearings.

 

the one motor to not buy at all is the shimano motors as will be software locked if it detects the motor casing has been opened and then software bricked forever.

 

bosch also brick the bms in the batts if you remove power thus why no one in this country can recell them as the only place in the world that can do it is in germany liofit.

 

but now even bafang is using can bus and locking there batts to the motors and displays so the days of programming your own motors are being killed off.

That's horrible news about Bafang not the way we want the industry to go especially as we are trying to be more environmentally friendly and use products for longer. I'm not going to claim to be an expert on Bosch motors but have seen many forum postings where Bosch owners have complained about their motors not being economic to repair and not just bearings, some had water ingress destroying the PCB I think and others other mechanical issues. The Brose motor system had a situation where they would destroy themselves and could only be replaced by a new motor which could be around £1000. There are also nylon cogs and belts in some mid-drive motors which are going to need replacement and this is made very difficult or at least expensive to do by the manufacturer.

 

Contrast that to a direct drive hub motor with no moving parts except the wheel axle and I've seen Grin service a direct drive hub motor after maybe 10s of thousands of miles and that service was pretty damn quick and off it goes again. I would see geared hub motors as somewhere in between mid-drive and direct drive, a little more complicated but still much easier to service and repair especially as controllers can be replaced or repaired easily as external.

 

I know its not quite the same as its off-road and taking a lot more abuse but remember reading of a Specialized ebike where the rider had destroyed the motor on the second ride and Specialized to their credit extended I think the motor guarantee from 2 to 4 years because of the terrible failure rate but this is on a product that can cost as much as a small car.

 

People are buying cheap entry level ebikes maybe £300 if bought a year or so back and just riding them. There is no margin in those cheap ebikes for a high return rate and if there was a high return rate then the companies selling them would be losing a serious amount of money. Every return or repair costs a chunk of money to process. There is such a margin on a £8k ebike but certainly isn't on a £500 ebike or less.

 

If part of why you like ebikes is their environmental benefit then mid-drive seems wrong to me, high cost, short life proprietary products should be resisted.

If part of why you like ebikes is their environmental benefit then mid-drive seems wrong to me, high cost, short life proprietary products should be resisted.

'Short life', and 'not user repairable' are certainly bad environmentally, but it is not reasonable to classify the mid-drive concept overall as that!

 

From a materials used point of view direct drive hubs are the worst, and small, geared motors whether in a hub or a mid-drive are much better. Look how much high environmental impact rare earth elements are required. These matter far more than a few plastic or metal gear replacements over the lifetime of a motor. 20 or more geared motors can be made for the same amounts as a single ungeared motor. That's 20 times as much mobility from a given amount of scarce resource.

 

Look at batteries too. Which motor type is hardest on the battery? So which needs a bigger, higher spec and more frequently replaced battery? Here the consistent low power demand of a mid-drive worked properly through the gears is the lowest impact solution.

 

So rather than condemn an efficient and elegant solution on the basis of big manfacturers' questionable repair policies, perhaps we should allow that all the technical options have their place and none does everything well.

And don't worry about the 'middle motor single point of failure' nonsense.. There are so many single points of failure in any bike that one more makes no difference. Andy just hates Bosch (and others) though what they ever did to him is not obvious.

I still say "tell the truth and shame the devil", so please be so kind as to inform us all about all the "other" single points of failure you mentioned, but gave no detail.

 

Why no exact details with names of affected types and their problems?

 

I would be fascinated to learn more from an expert with full knowledge!

 

If you do not have the time for any reason, I can write my personal take on that comment of yours, with full mechanical and electrical details of all the problems, which you can add to if you wish (or anyone else here too please!)

 

One only has to do a search on this website or the internet as a whole, to find that mid motors, especially Bosch, exactly as you mentioned, really do "mis-use" their customers. Some customers ending up with repair costs more than many cars need over a year or three!

 

Research is always good, preferably before buying!!!

 

Many thanks in advance for all the detail you apparently have at your finger tips!

 

Andy

'Short life', and 'not user repairable' are certainly bad environmentally, but it is not reasonable to classify the mid-drive concept overall as that!

 

From a materials used point of view direct drive hubs are the worst, and small, geared motors whether in a hub or a mid-drive are much better. Look how much high environmental impact rare earth elements are required. These matter far more than a few plastic or metal gear replacements over the lifetime of a motor. 20 or more geared motors can be made for the same amounts as a single ungeared motor. That's 20 times as much mobility from a given amount of scarce resource.

 

Look at batteries too. Which motor type is hardest on the battery? So which needs a bigger, higher spec and more frequently replaced battery? Here the consistent low power demand of a mid-drive worked properly through the gears is the lowest impact solution.

 

So rather than condemn an efficient and elegant solution on the basis of big manfacturers' questionable repair policies, perhaps we should allow that all the technical options have their place and none does everything well.

I disagree completely with your assumptions, they do not represent anything that I have experienced with my bikes, or the hub bikes of my friends either!! I would say if they are personal experiences, then you have been MOST unlucky, generally speaking!!!

I've owned two ebikes with simple rear hub motors, and they got used up to 4 times daily.

The first was bought secondhand with one battery, and everything still working (including the 9 year old battery) when I gave it away after 8 years of problem free riding. I do not count the one chain, one rear cassette, and multiple tyres and tubes, plus some parts for the brakes, it was normal wear and tear.

The second is only 5 years old, and after the two problems apparent at delivery were fixed by the importer, but me doing the work, it is still running problem free.

Only one plastic adjuster on the front disk crumbled through UV, and I made new parts in stainless, and it is still working fine!

Also not counting disk pads, tyres and tubes, but still no chain or cassette wear at all.....

Despite my nosiness, I have yet to see the inside of a hub motor of mine, or any of my friends hub bike motors, none of which have had problems either in that area.

I would probably need to go onto YouTube or similar, to see inside one, but I have seen several mid motors being examined, repair was not possible thogh, due to major damages......

Now that is quality and relability comparing mid to hub!!

regards

Andy

Mid drive motors are better if you want to ride off road, due the the better control through the gears etc

 

But the situation regarding motor repairs and (non availability of) spares is appalling, people are buying these bikes at £4,000+ not realising that a few years down the line they could be landfill.

 

l am one of those people, my E-mtb cost over £4,000 and l've discovered that if the Shimano motor fails out of warranty, l either have to pony up £800+ for a new motor, so long as they are available, or scrap the bike.

 

The newer version of the motor won't fit either.

Looks like my post and request for help got completely hijacked :-(

 

Goto

You'll be lucky to find anyone who has owned either bike, as there are so many Ebikes to choose from.

 

l've got a Mirider 1 which is apparently popular but none of my posts about this bike have produced a response from anyone who actually owns one.

 

However, from your two choices

l would go for the Rockrider because you've got somewhere to take it back if there's any trouble with it, and Decathlon are pretty good with warranty requests.

Plus they've got a workshop on site at most of their stores.

'Short life', and 'not user repairable' are certainly bad environmentally, but it is not reasonable to classify the mid-drive concept overall as that!

 

From a materials used point of view direct drive hubs are the worst, and small, geared motors whether in a hub or a mid-drive are much better. Look how much high environmental impact rare earth elements are required. These matter far more than a few plastic or metal gear replacements over the lifetime of a motor. 20 or more geared motors can be made for the same amounts as a single ungeared motor. That's 20 times as much mobility from a given amount of scarce resource.

 

Look at batteries too. Which motor type is hardest on the battery? So which needs a bigger, higher spec and more frequently replaced battery? Here the consistent low power demand of a mid-drive worked properly through the gears is the lowest impact solution.

 

So rather than condemn an efficient and elegant solution on the basis of big manfacturers' questionable repair policies, perhaps we should allow that all the technical options have their place and none does everything well.

 

I take your point about mid-drive's having more rare earth magnets but they are used everywhere aren't they from drills to table fans etc. I don't think that is a fair comparison as compared to an EV like a car there is very little used. They aren't that rare and the fact the motor costs very low money means less resources are put into it. It goes without saying that if a product can be made and sold for £100-200 the labour and materials that goes into are far less than something that costs £1000s.

 

I think you have it completely wrong on your second point. For legal ebikes mid-drive motors peak far higher for wattage. Bosch 250W motors have been shown to peak at over 700W which is more than comparable 250W direct drive and geared hub motors. It's like EU regulators are turning a blind eye to mid-drive as many are from European brands mainly German and they are far above the rated and nominal capacity of 250W. Also factor in the non-repairable nature of many battery packs for mid-drive motors I would say typically far worse environmentally.

 

Typically pre-built hub motor ebikes have lower capacity batteries than mid-drive and obviously price is a huge factor here. I don't think I've seen a mid-drive motor less than 380Wh but hub motor ebikes start at around 190Wh. Yes custom ebike builders whether mid-drive or hub will likely go for big batteries some of the time but bigger batteries share the current draw more per cell so can have extended life and of course those packs are more easily replaced or repaired. I don't feel there is anything here to really compare against each type of motor system except the proprietary nature of many mid-drive motor's batteries.

 

Maybe you are trying to get across the fact that mid-drive scales power through the gears and so uses less in higher gears than lower gears but Grin has done measurements regarding motor types and I think from what I've seen the most efficient is a geared hub motor with the clutch/freewheel disabled to allow regen and that was something like 6-7Wh per kilometre I think however I think that is with an always on arrangement. Probably a geared hub with freewheel/clutch is the most efficient because it remains the lowest weight drivetrain with the least drag so is a more efficient bike unpowered and so easier to use for longer sessions without power at all. Also remember there is significant efficiency loss in the chain and in the internal gears of mid-drive motors. In the end according to Grin there is very little difference in efficiency between different motor types because of many variables. Direct drive is in theory the most efficient because it is a pure brushless motor without any moving parts so provides great electrical efficiency with no mechanical loss but then factor in the greater weight and more resistance when unpowered then it isn't so good but then add in regen and it recovers a lot of efficiency.

 

It's something you hear in bike showrooms for expensive mid-drive ebikes but in reality there isn't much difference between motor systems with regard efficiency.

 

The advantage I feel for mid-drive is the high rpm of the little motor in the bottom bracket and scaling that power through the gears it means greater hill climbing power for high torque mid-drive motors. That doesn't equate to better hill climbing for low torque mid-drive motors i.e. those around 40-60Nm unless they have low gears less than 1:1 many hub motors can easily match those for hill climbing. Many mid-drive ebikes don't even have 1:1 gearing so if you get a bike with a 42T front chainring and a 34T maximum cog and 40Nm at the crank its hill climbing ability is compromised by the gearing and the power losses through the chain. If you start at 40Nm you will probably be down to something like 38Nm because of losses in the drivetrain and the gearing means you will have about 30Nm and many hub motors happily produce 45Nm so will be significantly better up hills. At that point I question the whole point of such mid-drive motors it just seems all disadvantages and no advantages.

I take your point about mid-drive's having more rare earth magnets but they are used everywhere aren't they from drills to table fans etc. I don't think that is a fair comparison as compared to an EV like a car there is very little used. They aren't that rare and the fact the motor costs very low money means less resources are put into it. It goes without saying that if a product can be made and sold for £100-200 the labour and materials that goes into are far less than something that costs £1000s.

 

I think you have it completely wrong on your second point. For legal ebikes mid-drive motors peak far higher for wattage. Bosch 250W motors have been shown to peak at over 700W which is more than comparable 250W direct drive and geared hub motors. It's like EU regulators are turning a blind eye to mid-drive as many are from European brands mainly German and they are far above the rated and nominal capacity of 250W. Also factor in the non-repairable nature of many battery packs for mid-drive motors I would say typically far worse environmentally.

 

Typically pre-built hub motor ebikes have lower capacity batteries than mid-drive and obviously price is a huge factor here. I don't think I've seen a mid-drive motor less than 380Wh but hub motor ebikes start at around 190Wh. Yes custom ebike builders whether mid-drive or hub will likely go for big batteries some of the time but bigger batteries share the current draw more per cell so can have extended life and of course those packs are more easily replaced or repaired. I don't feel there is anything here to really compare against each type of motor system except the proprietary nature of many mid-drive motor's batteries.

 

Maybe you are trying to get across the fact that mid-drive scales power through the gears and so uses less in higher gears than lower gears but Grin has done measurements regarding motor types and I think from what I've seen the most efficient is a geared hub motor with the clutch/freewheel disabled to allow regen and that was something like 6-7Wh per kilometre I think however I think that is with an always on arrangement. Probably a geared hub with freewheel/clutch is the most efficient because it remains the lowest weight drivetrain with the least drag so is a more efficient bike unpowered and so easier to use for longer sessions without power at all. Also remember there is significant efficiency loss in the chain and in the internal gears of mid-drive motors. In the end according to Grin there is very little difference in efficiency between different motor types because of many variables. Direct drive is in theory the most efficient because it is a pure brushless motor without any moving parts so provides great electrical efficiency with no mechanical loss but then factor in the greater weight and more resistance when unpowered then it isn't so good but then add in regen and it recovers a lot of efficiency.

 

It's something you hear in bike showrooms for expensive mid-drive ebikes but in reality there isn't much difference between motor systems with regard efficiency.

 

The advantage I feel for mid-drive is the high rpm of the little motor in the bottom bracket and scaling that power through the gears it means greater hill climbing power for high torque mid-drive motors. That doesn't equate to better hill climbing for low torque mid-drive motors i.e. those around 40-60Nm unless they have low gears less than 1:1 many hub motors can easily match those for hill climbing. Many mid-drive ebikes don't even have 1:1 gearing so if you get a bike with a 42T front chainring and a 34T maximum cog and 40Nm at the crank its hill climbing ability is compromised by the gearing and the power losses through the chain. If you start at 40Nm you will probably be down to something like 38Nm because of losses in the drivetrain and the gearing means you will have about 30Nm and many hub motors happily produce 45Nm so will be significantly better up hills. At that point I question the whole point of such mid-drive motors it just seems all disadvantages and no advantages.

Hi Bonzo,

I'm going to listen to the OP who was not impressed at being hijacked yesterday! Happy to discuss this but perhaps start a thread for it? Cheers!

Decathlon seem to have a good track record for warranty and returns.

I still say "tell the truth and shame the devil", so please be so kind as to inform us all about all the "other" single points of failure you mentioned, but gave no detail.

 

Why no exact details with names of affected types and their problems?

 

Cos ii assumed you and the rest of the forum could work out that a bike with broken front forks, seat post, wheel bearing, etc etc would also need pushing. Apparently you regard a chain as a unique case for some reason. Or maybe you just like to argue.

Cos ii assumed you and the rest of the forum could work out that a bike with broken front forks, seat post, wheel bearing, etc etc would also need pushing. Apparently you regard a chain as a unique case for some reason. Or maybe you just like to argue.

Still no REAL facts.

If you yourself believe in such "fairy Tales", which is your prerogative of course, but I refuse to.

I myself need hard facts, not dreams. I have recently found out that Pedelers generally feel the same way as I do, except for the mid motor owners!.....

So to help us ALL here, please state owner, make/model and dates of each of YOUR singe point of failure(s) that you mentioned.

I myself have been riding bikes of all types for around 66 years, and I know of NO instances, other than some mid motor e-bikes, where such problems do occurr, and are documented on the internet and on Pedelec as well.

But I am willing to be fully informed by you, but only when you are "factual" and not dreaming, seemingly trying to make trouble with your fancies!!!!

Thanks in advance for all the true facts that you are going to supply us in the next few days.

Or as in the old, old saying:- "Put up or shut up!"

Awaiting true and honest facts shortly.

Surely some of the "Bosch Brigade" here will help you out from the predicament you have seemingly caused yourself?

And let me just say that I myself do not believe a single word on the subject that you have uttered up to now, and futhermore, I still do not even know what model and make of bike you own!

For info only, mine is a Stark rear hub motor with 26" wheels, that I bought in 2017 (or 2016!), when they first started the crowd funding, mine was the #116 one off the line.....Best buy of my life! It cost me £935 if I remember correctly, all but one of the extras, paniers, chain bike lock, full suspension front and back, all taxes and transport costs included.

Plus it has no CANBUS or similar crap, thankfully, that bricks the controller if power is lost for any reason!

I wish you a good day and do please answer all OUR queries, within the next 7 days would be really great!

Andy

PS. Just for you my bike:-

https://starkdrive.bike/

I see that it is now $499, instead of $399 as it was when I bought it, so reckoning with about £1,000 if bought as I did, now. So still very cheap and very easy to upgrade further if needed. Repairs, if needed, could be done by anyone with reasonable knowledge, or just about most LBSs... Parts cheap and easy to source.

Nuff said!

bafang now use can bus on all of there controllers inc hubs but then you can use another controller for now at least.

 

anything with moving parts will fail but with these locked systems it is making it impossible and forcing you to buy there rip off batts!

 

it is only a matter of time b4 everything with a batt inside of it will be locked down for pure corporate greed like future motion and that one wheel you can only buy a tyre from them.

 

i must have seen about 15 Deliveroo drivers riding back from town last night and all of them has 1000w+ hub motors and as big a batt they can fit in the frame.

I was right, you just like arguing.

 

A point of failure is a place where it CAN fail. There are lots on a bike, You seem to believe a mid motor bike has an extra one - I assume the chain. However a mid motor bike can have hub gears, and a stronger chain (or belt), and chains are not hard to fix anyway (a rear hub motor will not function well in the absence of a chain, if it is torque sensing controller).

 

There are prod and cons of mid motors vs hubs (but 'single point of failure' isn't a major one, compared to cost, ease of bike conversion, wheel removal, etc etc), there are prod and cons of suspension vs hardtail, wide vs narrow tyres, V brakes vs discs, and plenty else. Your unwillingness to go beyond 'single point of failure' religion is just big endian vs little endian (see Jonathon Swift) bigotry. Get off your hobby horse, and stop the religious wars.

 

<plonk>

I have both types of motor and like them both.

 

A 2015 Haibike Yamaha crank drive.

 

Two circa 2011 Oxygen simple cadence sensor bikes.

 

I would tend to agree with matthewslack general observations, with the proviso that my rear hub bikes are 4 years older in design terms than my Haibike.

 

Even geared rear hub motors are only at their most efficient in a particular rev range and you cannot use your gears like a crank drive to make use more often of the best rev range of the motor. My rear hub bikes quickly bog down on steeper hills. They are still helping but are at an inefficient low rev rate and still pulling a lot of power but turning it into heat rather than motion.

 

Also as Matthew has said I get a comparatively much greater range out of my 400Wh battery on the Haibike than my rear hub bikes.

 

One very basic factor effecting this is that my Haibike Yamaha can be ridden with the system on but the assistance off, where as the only way to remove the assistance on my rear hub bikes is to turn the system completely off, which you do not want to do. So the best you can do is engage the lowest assistance setting when riding downhill for example. My Haibike rides very well with no assistance with seemingly much less drag though this is probably more to do with the higher gearing of the rear hub bikes than anything else.

 

However for many practical reasons the rear hubs are the bikes I grab for 99% of shopping and errand trips.

 

My 2015 Haibike has a 60nm motor, but again feels much more powerful than my rear hub bikes, and off road where I predominantly use it, it is far superior.

 

For commuting on the road I would pick a rear hub bike for its simplicity and low running costs. The torque control system of The Haibike gives great control but I find it less relaxing ridden on the road than the simple cadense syatem rear hub bikes.

 

As soundwave has said any motor with moving parts will wear out and need fixing at some point. I was lucky to get a new Yamaha motor free of charge just on my two year warranty after riding it 6,000 miles when it suffered bearing failure. The second motor has now done 9,634 miles. My battery is the original 400Wh one as I ride in my eighth year of ownership.

 

I am on my third rear motor wheel on The Oxygen rear hub bike I bought new in 2011. I am also now on my fourth battery. I naively bought my first replacement battery from an Oxygen dealership at about £400 cost. Since then I have bought off ebay. So my three batteries have cost £785. Interestingly my most recently bought Yose battery was the cheapest at £165, included a charger and is the best of the replacement batteries I have bought. If I were to buy a genuine Yamaha replacement battery it would cost an eye watering £650.

 

So not counting worn out parts (important as the drive train on the Haibike costs much more to maintain than the rear hub) what has been the damage roughly.

 

Oxygen cost £1400, Haibike cost £1,750, so £350 more expensive

 

Oxygen has needed £785 of replacement batteries and The Haibike has not needed one so far.

 

I needed to buy a charger for the Oxygen probably when it was about four years old and paid I think about £50 which was more than I should but there we go.

 

I bought two motor wheels from Oxygen for what I consider the good value price of £120.

 

I have had to replace a few throttles on The Oxygen for around £20 a pop

 

On the Haibike I have replaced two rear wheels. It is a hard tail and I am heavy and ride quite aggressively off road.

 

The first replacement was a mavic and lasted 10,000 miles. when the rim started to crack, I thought I would spoil myself with a hand built replacement rear wheel, that cost, well, quite a lot!

 

Anyway all my bikes still work great, and are great, The Haibike bought itself just about in saved fuel costs from not using my car as I used it to commute to work and back for four and a half years before retiring.

 

I did get knocked of my rear hub bike by, surprisingly, an Audi. Also surprisingly he hung around and admitted liability, and I had a witness. I pursued him with a personal injury claim and eventually got over 5k.

 

The mileage on The Haibike is recorded and stands at 15,643.

The Oxygen is not recorded but must do 2,000 miles a year and now be over 20,000 miles.

 

So rough totting up Haibike £1,750, plus Oxygen £1400 equals £3,150

 

Oxygen Batteries £785 + £3,150 equals £3,935

 

Oxygen motor wheels, throttles and charger £180 + £3,935 equals £4,115

 

Haibike two rear wheels, £850, say it quickly + £4,115 equals £4,965

 

All this does not include tyres, brake pads, chains casettes, chain rings etc

 

Oxygen personal injury claim £5,300.

 

Haibike fuel savings when ridden to work and back estimate £1,750

 

So Adding fuel savings to the personal injury claim equals £7,050 minus the basic cost of £4,965 means I am £2,085 in profit, not counting consumable parts, but mainly due to the personal injury claim and Audi which I would not encourage other members to use to save costs, as it hurts too much.

 

My almost daily 4 mile return rides to Town on shopping errand trips add up to a not inconsiderable fuel/wear and tear saving.

 

I do not know how you measure the Health benefits. Or the fun.

 

Andy Mat will not like this.

 

Of course keeping the Yamaha Haibike going as it ages will prove much more difficult and expensive than the Oxygen with its generic Chinese system. Both have been brilliant so far.

Edited May 1, 20223 yr by georgehenry

if it was not for peter id never buy another mid drive bike but a full bearing change for the Yamaha motor is £227 if he does it and worst case if the metal drive gear is worn another 90 quid b4 peter it would be a hole new motor at 1k.

 

my bike is even older and the performance motor i had still worked but needs new bearings and a new transfer gear but i use a dongle and hammer the crap out of it and never killed it and it is prob in another bike already as gave it to him for store credit and keep another bosch powerd bike on the road.

 

i was going to keep it but now i have a kiox display but if i swap motors it will say dealer update required as the sn has changed on the motor so wants a can shake to every component every time id change it and 30 quid a pop down the bosch dealers so no point keeping it in that case and when i do get a new bosch batt it will say it again .

 

o and they do make mid drive hub motor bikes

 

base model starts at $11500 so sod that:rolleyes:

I knew very little about integrated crank drive bikes when I bought my Haibike Yamaha.

 

I was gently pressurized to buy the hard tail Bosch powered bike.

 

The two things that made me stick to my guns and buy the Yamaha were firstly that the Bosch was £500 more expensive, and secondly that I had ridden Yamaha motorbikes and believed it would be engineered every bit as well as the Bosch. I actually thought there would be every chance that it would be better engineered.

 

I had also test ridden both systems and simply preferred the Yamaha zero cadence system.

 

Now I am n more knowledgeable and know about how difficult it is to buy a generic battery and fix the bike yourself. Soundwave tells me that the Yamaha is the least difficult of the mid drive motor systems to keep going and repair.

 

A few years ago I was going to buy another Yamaha powered Haibike but by then knew how vulnerable you could be to problems that cannot easily be fixed, so decided not to. So their lock out systems lost them a repeat sale with me!