Can anyone compare these two bikes.

[soundwave]

bafang now use can bus on all of there controllers inc hubs but then you can use another controller for now at least.

anything with moving parts will fail but with these locked systems it is making it impossible and forcing you to buy there rip off batts!

it is only a matter of time b4 everything with a batt inside of it will be locked down for pure corporate greed like future motion and that one wheel you can only buy a tyre from them.

i must have seen about 15 Deliveroo drivers riding back from town last night and all of them has 1000w+ hub motors and as big a batt they can fit in the frame.

 

[GSV3MiaC]

I was right, you just like arguing.

A point of failure is a place where it CAN fail. There are lots on a bike, You seem to believe a mid motor bike has an extra one - I assume the chain. However a mid motor bike can have hub gears, and a stronger chain (or belt), and chains are not hard to fix anyway (a rear hub motor will not function well in the absence of a chain, if it is torque sensing controller).

There are prod and cons of mid motors vs hubs (but 'single point of failure' isn't a major one, compared to cost, ease of bike conversion, wheel removal, etc etc), there are prod and cons of suspension vs hardtail, wide vs narrow tyres, V brakes vs discs, and plenty else. Your unwillingness to go beyond 'single point of failure' religion is just big endian vs little endian (see Jonathon Swift) bigotry. Get off your hobby horse, and stop the religious wars.

<plonk>

 

[georgehenry]

I have both types of motor and like them both.

A 2015 Haibike Yamaha crank drive.

Two circa 2011 Oxygen simple cadence sensor bikes.

I would tend to agree with matthewslack general observations, with the proviso that my rear hub bikes are 4 years older in design terms than my Haibike.

Even geared rear hub motors are only at their most efficient in a particular rev range and you cannot use your gears like a crank drive to make use more often of the best rev range of the motor. My rear hub bikes quickly bog down on steeper hills. They are still helping but are at an inefficient low rev rate and still pulling a lot of power but turning it into heat rather than motion.

Also as Matthew has said I get a comparatively much greater range out of my 400Wh battery on the Haibike than my rear hub bikes.

One very basic factor effecting this is that my Haibike Yamaha can be ridden with the system on but the assistance off, where as the only way to remove the assistance on my rear hub bikes is to turn the system completely off, which you do not want to do. So the best you can do is engage the lowest assistance setting when riding downhill for example. My Haibike rides very well with no assistance with seemingly much less drag though this is probably more to do with the higher gearing of the rear hub bikes than anything else.

However for many practical reasons the rear hubs are the bikes I grab for 99% of shopping and errand trips.

My 2015 Haibike has a 60nm motor, but again feels much more powerful than my rear hub bikes, and off road where I predominantly use it, it is far superior.

For commuting on the road I would pick a rear hub bike for its simplicity and low running costs. The torque control system of The Haibike gives great control but I find it less relaxing ridden on the road than the simple cadense syatem rear hub bikes.

As soundwave has said any motor with moving parts will wear out and need fixing at some point. I was lucky to get a new Yamaha motor free of charge just on my two year warranty after riding it 6,000 miles when it suffered bearing failure. The second motor has now done 9,634 miles. My battery is the original 400Wh one as I ride in my eighth year of ownership.

I am on my third rear motor wheel on The Oxygen rear hub bike I bought new in 2011. I am also now on my fourth battery. I naively bought my first replacement battery from an Oxygen dealership at about £400 cost. Since then I have bought off ebay. So my three batteries have cost £785. Interestingly my most recently bought Yose battery was the cheapest at £165, included a charger and is the best of the replacement batteries I have bought. If I were to buy a genuine Yamaha replacement battery it would cost an eye watering £650.

So not counting worn out parts (important as the drive train on the Haibike costs much more to maintain than the rear hub) what has been the damage roughly.

Oxygen cost £1400, Haibike cost £1,750, so £350 more expensive

Oxygen has needed £785 of replacement batteries and The Haibike has not needed one so far.

I needed to buy a charger for the Oxygen probably when it was about four years old and paid I think about £50 which was more than I should but there we go.

I bought two motor wheels from Oxygen for what I consider the good value price of £120.

I have had to replace a few throttles on The Oxygen for around £20 a pop

On the Haibike I have replaced two rear wheels. It is a hard tail and I am heavy and ride quite aggressively off road.

The first replacement was a mavic and lasted 10,000 miles. when the rim started to crack, I thought I would spoil myself with a hand built replacement rear wheel, that cost, well, quite a lot!

Anyway all my bikes still work great, and are great, The Haibike bought itself just about in saved fuel costs from not using my car as I used it to commute to work and back for four and a half years before retiring.

I did get knocked of my rear hub bike by, surprisingly, an Audi. Also surprisingly he hung around and admitted liability, and I had a witness. I pursued him with a personal injury claim and eventually got over 5k.

The mileage on The Haibike is recorded and stands at 15,643.
The Oxygen is not recorded but must do 2,000 miles a year and now be over 20,000 miles.

So rough totting up Haibike £1,750, plus Oxygen £1400 equals £3,150

Oxygen Batteries £785 + £3,150 equals £3,935

Oxygen motor wheels, throttles and charger £180 + £3,935 equals £4,115

Haibike two rear wheels, £850, say it quickly + £4,115 equals £4,965

All this does not include tyres, brake pads, chains casettes, chain rings etc

Oxygen personal injury claim £5,300.

Haibike fuel savings when ridden to work and back estimate £1,750

So Adding fuel savings to the personal injury claim equals £7,050 minus the basic cost of £4,965 means I am £2,085 in profit, not counting consumable parts, but mainly due to the personal injury claim and Audi which I would not encourage other members to use to save costs, as it hurts too much.

My almost daily 4 mile return rides to Town on shopping errand trips add up to a not inconsiderable fuel/wear and tear saving.

I do not know how you measure the Health benefits. Or the fun.

Andy Mat will not like this.

Of course keeping the Yamaha Haibike going as it ages will prove much more difficult and expensive than the Oxygen with its generic Chinese system. Both have been brilliant so far.

 

[soundwave]

if it was not for peter id never buy another mid drive bike but a full bearing change for the Yamaha motor is £227 if he does it and worst case if the metal drive gear is worn another 90 quid b4 peter it would be a hole new motor at 1k.

my bike is even older and the performance motor i had still worked but needs new bearings and a new transfer gear but i use a dongle and hammer the crap out of it and never killed it and it is prob in another bike already as gave it to him for store credit and keep another bosch powerd bike on the road.

i was going to keep it but now i have a kiox display but if i swap motors it will say dealer update required as the sn has changed on the motor so wants a can shake to every component every time id change it and 30 quid a pop down the bosch dealers so no point keeping it in that case and when i do get a new bosch batt it will say it again .

o and they do make mid drive hub motor bikes


base model starts at $11500 so sod that

 

[georgehenry]

I knew very little about integrated crank drive bikes when I bought my Haibike Yamaha.

I was gently pressurized to buy the hard tail Bosch powered bike.

The two things that made me stick to my guns and buy the Yamaha were firstly that the Bosch was £500 more expensive, and secondly that I had ridden Yamaha motorbikes and believed it would be engineered every bit as well as the Bosch. I actually thought there would be every chance that it would be better engineered.

I had also test ridden both systems and simply preferred the Yamaha zero cadence system.

Now I am n more knowledgeable and know about how difficult it is to buy a generic battery and fix the bike yourself. Soundwave tells me that the Yamaha is the least difficult of the mid drive motor systems to keep going and repair.

A few years ago I was going to buy another Yamaha powered Haibike but by then knew how vulnerable you could be to problems that cannot easily be fixed, so decided not to. So their lock out systems lost them a repeat sale with me!

 

[soundwave]

I knew very little about integrated crank drive bikes when I bought my Haibike Yamaha.

I was gently pressurized to buy the hard tail Bosch powered bike.

The two things that made me stick to my guns and buy the Yamaha were firstly that the Bosch was £500 more expensive, and secondly that I had ridden Yamaha motorbikes and believed it would be engineered every bit as well as the Bosch. I actually thought there would be every chance that it would be better engineered.

I had also test ridden both systems and simply preferred the Yamaha zero cadence system.

Now I am n more knowledgeable and know about how difficult it is to buy a generic battery and fix the bike yourself. Soundwave tells me that the Yamaha is the least difficult of the mid drive motor systems to keep going and repair.

A few years ago I was going to buy another Yamaha powered Haibike but by then knew how vulnerable you could be to problems that cannot easily be fixed, so decided not to. So their lock out systems lost them a repeat sale with me!

Yamaha use uart programming so the batts can be recelled if you get the 3rd party chip so the new pack can still send coms like the original ones and are designed to be serviced where as most others are alot more complex like the brose motors.

but giant use the yamaha motors and use can bus on there batts so the controllers that peter can get wont work on these bikes.

ebike vision make a 750w batt if you want one but there 1k.

High-quality replacement batteries from E-Bike Vision

Do you need a new bike battery? You can find your suitable replacement battery here in the overview.

www.e-bike-vision.de

 

[Nealh]

My two swizzbees use a mid drive bldc motor, they aren't conventional hubs but ones heinzman made for them.

 

[Andy-Mat]

I was right, you just like arguing.

A point of failure is a place where it CAN fail. There are lots on a bike, You seem to believe a mid motor bike has an extra one - I assume the chain. However a mid motor bike can have hub gears, and a stronger chain (or belt), and chains are not hard to fix anyway (a rear hub motor will not function well in the absence of a chain, if it is torque sensing controller).

There are prod and cons of mid motors vs hubs (but 'single point of failure' isn't a major one, compared to cost, ease of bike conversion, wheel removal, etc etc), there are prod and cons of suspension vs hardtail, wide vs narrow tyres, V brakes vs discs, and plenty else. Your unwillingness to go beyond 'single point of failure' religion is just big endian vs little endian (see Jonathon Swift) bigotry. Get off your hobby horse, and stop the religious wars.

<plonk>

You ought to read up on what a single point of failure really is! Its not a religion as you appear to feel, it is solid thought out fact!! There is even a Wiki page, which I have linked to below for you!!

But because you are obviously missing the point (your single point of failure maybe?), until you inderstand why I call it that.
Your example about brakes, think, a good bike has two, so one failing, unless on a very steep hill, will not preclude riding home!!
Having them both fail at the same time would be called "coincidence"....not SPOF.
With regard to mid motors and hub bikes, the mid motor has several failures, all of which cause a "walk home" situation:-

1) Chain breaks and you have no spare, or tools to place it in position, or light to see by, or you have, but its pissing down!
2) Rear cassette fails, and you have no spare, or tools to place it in position, or light to see by, or you have, but its pissing down!
3) Drive sprocket on motor fails/breaks, and you have no spare, or tools to place it in position, or light to see by, or you have, but its pissing down!
All 3 of these errors do not stop a hub motor running and driving you home (assuming that the battery is also not empty!), for 1) removing the rest of the chain, then either by fooling the PAS with empty peddling (the PAS is usually on the crank), or simply, like my bike, using the throttle! But empty peddling does it as well!

Read here:-
A single point of failure (SPOF) is a part of a system that, if it fails, will stop the entire system from working.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_point_of_failure

I hope that you now fully understand.

By the way, the system in my example is driving either wheel, to get home with either a mid or a hub motor.
Of course its even more obvious if you have a bike with a front hub, that the chain, the cassette and the motor drive cog (does not exist in any hub bike), so it cannot break at all!)

I hope that the "penny has finally dropped!" and you now know and fully understand, what a SPOF is!!!

You really need to know this, assuming for a moment that you own and ride a mid motor, (as i am almost 100% sure that you do), or my talking about it's problems would not get you so rude and het up!
Andy
PS. I was in my Grammar school's debating team over 60 years ago, and I never lost a debate (one a week for two years!), because I always informed myself fully with easily provable facts.
So the only place where you were correct in your critic above, is that I enjoy an argument/debate, but I only argue/debate, when i know all the facts correctly.....dead simple!
PPS. I have kept it simple and only mentione one SPOF, but both Bosch, Yamaha and some others use CANBUS or similar, on mid motors to brick the battery or the motor (or possibly both!), if private repairs are made. So the list of SPOFs on such bikes, is getting even longer, and longer, due to greedy OEMs!!

 

[soundwave]

1) Chain breaks and you have no spare, or tools to place it in position, or light to see by, or you have, but its pissing down!

well this has happened 2 times in 8 years the first time the quick link failed as kept reusing it and should be replaced every time the chain is removed did not believe the sram bs and it did fail but just about made it home with half the side of a link missing.

2nd time the rear top jockey wheel exploded tore the chain in half and 1.5 mile walk home, i now use metal jockey wheels

2) Rear cassette fails, and you have no spare, or tools to place it in position, or light to see by, or you have, but its pissing down

not had the cassette fail but the original xd hub on my bike did fail but got it replaced under warranty and no problems since with the new one or the mavic one i have now.

3) Drive sprocket on motor fails/breaks, and you have no spare, or tools to place it in position, or light to see by, or you have, but its pissing down!

never had this problem.

at the end of the day a hub motor is better for the road but when it comes to off road and black mtb trails a hub motor is a bad idea unless you have thru axles and then those hub motors are 1k anyway and you dont want a massive lump on the back wheel.

 

[Andy-Mat]

1) Chain breaks and you have no spare, or tools to place it in position, or light to see by, or you have, but its pissing down!

well this has happened 2 times in 8 years the first time the quick link failed as kept reusing it and should be replaced every time the chain is removed did not believe the sram bs and it did fail but just about made it home with half the side of a link missing.

2nd time the rear top jockey wheel exploded tore the chain in half and 1.5 mile walk home, i now use metal jockey wheels

2) Rear cassette fails, and you have no spare, or tools to place it in position, or light to see by, or you have, but its pissing down

not had the cassette fail but the original xd hub on my bike did fail but got it replaced under warranty and no problems since with the new one or the mavic one i have now.

3) Drive sprocket on motor fails/breaks, and you have no spare, or tools to place it in position, or light to see by, or you have, but its pissing down!

never had this problem.

at the end of the day a hub motor is better for the road but when it comes to off road and black mtb trails a hub motor is a bad idea unless you have thru axles and then those hub motors are 1k anyway and you dont want a massive lump on the back wheel.

I have driven both mid motor (before I knew about the problems!) on test from a colleagues (several times), and rear hub motor, and I ride cross country, mountains and hills, plus roads, I have not noticed any balance benefit or deficet from either type.
My personal take is as the mid motor chain is more stressed by the design, that rough riding will make wear and tear, especially for heavy riders, accentuated. The hub bike's chain is stressed less even than a conventional bike's chain, with the same weight rider!
Though I have never ridden a front hub myself (rare around here), but I saw one once, and the owner was most happy with it.....is all I can say.
With regard to drive sprocket failing, please see that as maybe the clutch/gears in some mid motors failing, as it would have a similar effect, as gears are maybe seen as a motor failure, but its only in the same casing....
regards
Andy

 

[soundwave]

my bike goes 35mph and i ramp the living $hit out of it and in 8 years only on my 2nd cassette its called maintenance and keeping everything race ready because if i dont it will fall to bits i check every bolt every week as to fkn expensive to loose any of them.

what do you need a chain for anyway pmsl

or a tyre.

 

[Andy-Mat]

my bike goes 35mph and i ramp the living $hit out of it and in 8 years only on my 2nd cassette its called maintenance and keeping everything race ready because if i dont it will fall to bits i check every bolt every week as to fkn expensive to loose any of them.

what do you need a chain for anyway pmsl

or a tyre.

You are of course 100% correct in your comment, and putting chains on mid motor designs was an appalling design engineering decision/MISTAKE in the first place, made by certain companies.

But to be still selling them in 2022, with basically the same design still, furthermore actually placing electronics (CANBUS) in them to brick either the battery and/or the motor if a private person attempts to repair HIS OWN E-BIKE, shows that certain companies are being very user UNfriendly to their own customers.

And that certain people are STILL WILLING to pay exorbitant prices for such unmitigated C**P, is still a huge surprise to me personally!
Proving that some people are very slow learners!

Of course, if middle motors had been (properly) otherwise designed in the first place, with say a drive shaft or similar and no highly stressed chains involved, maybe we would be all discussing the the situation, but from the other side, why are not all e-bikes, mid motors included, to stop using old fashioned chains - who knows?

What is also a surprise to me personally, is the gullible people who then try to argue here on pedelec, that mid motor is "better" in any way, and that there is no single point of failure in your average mid motor design, but are seemingly unable to assemble the facts to make any sort of intelligent reply on the subject, is more than worrying for me.

It also appears that these firms selling such badly thought out designs, are relying on people's lack of knowledge in buying with no proper research, to maintain their sales.......
All of which is surprising to say the very least, to me personally.

We must not forget that Bosch had major problems with their designs, from the very beginning, guessing only, the best part of 10 years now? But with no truly positive improvements in that time, that actually benefit their own customer base.

Other similar mid motor designs, also making the same problems for their customers, to a greater or lesser extent.

Until the chain finally dissappears completely, and companies really appreciate and take care of their customer base, we will still be seeing unhappy customers with mid motor designs.

I am reminded of the awful name that the car company Fiat earned in the 70s and early 80s, due to their poor quality steel, and poor quality painting, and poor quality electrics, which have over the years been positively improved, but the poor impression still remains with older people to this day!

regards to all

Andy

 

[Ocsid]

Struth!

 

[georgehenry]

I am not sure that having a chain drive is a design flaw, after all lots of motorcycles have chain drives.

What surprises me is why no one has offered up a properly designed stronger chain drive transmission. A thicker stronger chain, coupled to a cassette and chain ring similarly beefed up would completely solve the problem.

Adding a bit of weight is not so much of an issue for an electric bike, and a lot of people would be happy to make the compromise if a much stronger transmission, perhaps with fewer more widely spaced gears were made available if it lasted a lot longer, as a properly designed transmission easily could.

Although you don't like to admit it Andy, there are real advantages of a crank drive over a hub drive. I have both and like both, but for proper off road use, or very hilly terrain the crank drive is far superior.

I caveat my statements with the fact that my hub bikes are 2011 and my crank drive 2015, and improvements in designs of both could change my opinion.

I would for example love to have a go on the woosh gran camino and take it off road.

I have also not ridden a properly designed rear hub mountain bike but would love to have a go on one.

 

[sjpt]

What surprises me is why no one has offered up a properly designed stronger chain drive transmission. A thicker stronger chain, coupled to a cassette and chain ring similarly beefed up would completely solve the problem.

There are specific chains designed for e-bikes (as I'm sure you know). However, most people don't bother because that particular problem is such a minor one.

 

[Andy-Mat]

I am not sure that having a chain drive is a design flaw, after all lots of motorcycles have chain drives.

What surprises me is why no one has offered up a properly designed stronger chain drive transmission. A thicker stronger chain, coupled to a cassette and chain ring similarly beefed up would completely solve the problem.

Adding a bit of weight is not so much of an issue for an electric bike, and a lot of people would be happy to make the compromise if a much stronger transmission, perhaps with fewer more widely spaced gears were made available if it lasted a lot longer, as a properly designed transmission easily could.

Although you don't like to admit it Andy, there are real advantages of a crank drive over a hub drive. I have both and like both, but for proper off road use, or very hilly terrain the crank drive is far superior.

I caveat my statements with the fact that my hub bikes are 2011 and my crank drive 2015, and improvements in designs of both could change my opinion.

I would for example love to have a go on the woosh gran camino and take it off road.

I have also not ridden a properly designed rear hub mountain bike but would love to have a go on one.

Great post, and a possible way to go for mid motor bikes.

Hubs don't need anything heavier as the load is generally far less on a chain with a hub (either), and it can "survive" many years of constant usage, with minimum maintenance.

Many forget that if you compare the same rider, on the same ride, with a normal bike and an e-bike with a hub motor, the hub chain does not need to transmit any motor torque, which reduces wear dramatically. And having the motor take some or even all of the load from time to time, reduces further damage by torque to the chain and its ascociated components!

In comparison, a mid motor chain has to transmit ALL rider torque and ALL motor torque. Thats the one that needs your beefed up chain and drive, sadly probably doubling or tripling the weight - but just guessing.

I looked up motorcycle chains, which I feel is a fair way to compare and found this:-

How Often Should a Motorcycle Chain be Replaced?

Chain maintenance is one of the first things you should learn about when you own a motorcycle. Without a well-fitted and properly lubricated chain, there’s no way to transfer power from the engine to the wheels. But chains wear out over time and need replacing. So, how often should a motorcycle...

packupandride.com

So, how often should a motorcycle chain be replaced? In general, a properly maintained motorcycle can last 20,000 to 30,000 miles, sometimes more. But, some last as little as 5,000 to 10,000 miles. This difference is due to the type of chain, how and where you ride, and how well you maintain it.

So maybe not a great recommendation really. I remember in the 1960's replacing my Motorbike chains quite often, but I have no exact idea of mileage anymore....or costs! But every 5,000 miles springs to mind, it was several times a year! I actually do far more mileage per chain on my e-bike nowadays.....around 20,000 KMs on average. Minimal maintenance.

regards

Andy

 

[georgehenry]

Modern motorcycle chains are almost all o ring style with lubrication built in and well maintained last a long time. However you probably could not use the o ring technology on a bike chain as o ring chains probably cannot be made small enough.

Yes I know about ebike specific chains.

I was more thinking in terms of a simple inevitably heavier and stronger relatively basic derailleur transmission designed to be maybe twice as strong as the current bicycle ones that are used.

One that could much better stand abuse and some poor maintenance and still deliver a good mileage. With say cassette cogs that are twice as wide and a similarly stronger chain to match the problem of early failure would be solved.

Good maintenance would simply extend the life span.

 

[Scruffydroid]

I replace my dirt bike x-ring chain when the links become tight and/or the sprockets become hooked. Usually after about 30-40 hours of moderate riding. They certainly don't last more than 500 miles.

 

[Andy-Mat]

th

I replace my dirt bike x-ring chain when the links become tight and/or the sprockets become hooked. Usually after about 30-40 hours of moderate riding. They certainly don't last more than 500 miles.

That seems to be a very short chain life for (and I am assuming!) even a mid motor e-bike.......
About once a year, I borrow from an old friend of mine, a chain measuring device (I have not a clue what they are called), that tells me if the chain has become/becoming stretched....as that starts the dreaded cog wear (hooks) I am told......
regards
Andy

 

[Scruffydroid]

Dirt bike not E-Bike. I was using the o-ring/x-ring analogy.