Can anyone compare these two bikes.

[Goto11]

I am down to a choice of two bikes now, I am 60+ and need reasonable range mtb in the £1200 range and I know basically the level of bike that will get me. I need it to be comfortable off road, just gravel, canal, light trail so nothing too taxing with a reasonable range. I am ready to order either a Rockrider 500 or NCM Moscow, has anyone had experience of either of these two bikes ? I know both had some improvements from early models but looking for someone who could enlighten me more.

Thanks Goto

 

[Andy-Mat]

I am down to a choice of two bikes now, I am 60+ and need reasonable range mtb in the £1200 range and I know basically the level of bike that will get me. I need it to be comfortable off road, just gravel, canal, light trail so nothing too taxing with a reasonable range. I am ready to order either a Rockrider 500 or NCM Moscow, has anyone had experience of either of these two bikes ? I know both had some improvements from early models but looking for someone who could enlighten me more.

Thanks Goto

I could only fnd the NCM Moscow online with pictures, but assuming the Rockrider is also a rear Hub bike for the moment only, you should be mostly OK with either.
The only Rockrider 500 I could find was not electric.....
The things to avoid are things like middle motors (single point of failure, leading to long walks home!), CANBUS systems linking up all the electronics and motor, which prevent you making repairs, replacements and adjustments yourself!
I also bought a cheap Chinese built, generic e-bike some 5 years ago (after riding a cheap secondhand import e-bike, for almost 8 years, also with no problems!), and other than some teething problems after delivery, that I eventually got fixed by the importer, I paid in total less than 1,000 UK Pounds (but here in Germany), including import taxes and transport fees, which included all the offered extras (except GPS Tracker), and a second battery.
That same model is still on sale worldwide, with some minor improvements over mine...
Other than disk pads, tyres and tube replacements, and needing to make the controller water proof, I have had as good as no problems.
The money I saved, I put aside for anticipated problems, which it has not been used for till now at least, as I have ridden problem free. I use the bike it up to 4 times daily, as I have no car anymore.
I am sure that you will also get some great times with either of your choices.
Maybe someone here has more extensive personal knowledge of either or both bikes, that can help you further, better than I can, hopefully.
TIP:- if you are over 21, do get full suspension and at least slightly fat tyres, as when you are a few years older, you will be most happy that you did!!!
Then you can NEVER call your bike a "bone-shaker"!
Best wishes
Andy
PS. Do not forget that if you are not DIY minded, a good guarantee and a local bike shop to carry it out is needed....
PPS. Dis you possibly mean this bike?
E Mountainbike E-ST 500 V2 27,5 Zoll schwarz/blau

 

[Goto11]

I could only fnd the NCM Moscow online with pictures, but assuming the Rockrider is also a rear Hub bike for the moment only, you should be mostly OK with either.
The only Rockrider 500 I could find was not electric.....
The things to avoid are things like middle motors (single point of failure, leading to long walks home!), CANBUS systems linking up all the electronics and motor, which prevent you making repairs, replacements and adjustments yourself!
I also bought a cheap Chinese built, generic e-bike some 5 years ago (after riding a cheap secondhand import e-bike, for almost 8 years, also with no problems!), and other than some teething problems after delivery, that I eventually got fixed by the importer, I paid in total less than 1,000 UK Pounds (but here in Germany), including import taxes and transport fees, which included all the offered extras (except GPS Tracker), and a second battery.
That same model is still on sale worldwide, with some minor improvements over mine...
Other than disk pads, tyres and tube replacements, and needing to make the controller water proof, I have had as good as no problems.
The money I saved, I put aside for anticipated problems, which it has not been used for till now at least, as I have ridden problem free. I use the bike it up to 4 times daily, as I have no car anymore.
I am sure that you will also get some great times with either of your choices.
Maybe someone here has more extensive personal knowledge of either or both bikes, that can help you further, better than I can, hopefully.
TIP:- if you are over 21, do get full suspension and at least slightly fat tyres, as when you are a few years older, you will be most happy that you did!!!
Then you can NEVER call your bike a "bone-shaker"!
Best wishes
Andy
PS. Do not forget that if you are not DIY minded, a good guarantee and a local bike shop to carry it out is needed....
PPS. Dis you possibly mean this bike?
E Mountainbike E-ST 500 V2 27,5 Zoll schwarz/blau

 

[Goto11]

Hi Thanks for your reply, yes it the st500 v2 from decathlon.

Goto

 

[egroover]

If it was me I'd go with the Moscow, bigger battery (and reasonably priced replacements/spares on Aliexpress available), more torque
The only slight doubt I'd have is the level of support from Leon Cycles in the event of a warranty claim, do your research beforehand

 

[GSV3MiaC]

And don't worry about the 'middle motor single point of failure' nonsense.. There are so many single points of failure in any bike that one more makes no difference. Andy just hates Bosch (and others) though what they ever did to him is not obvious.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

And don't worry about the 'middle motor single point of failure' nonsense.. There are so many single points of failure in any bike that one more makes no difference. Andy just hates Bosch (and others) though what they ever did to him is not obvious.

I don't think its hate its just mid-drive is overly complicated and delivers its power through the drivetrain making it a higher performance but more troublesome and higher cost ebike solution. I went into a bike shop today to have a nose, not a ebike to be seen for less than £3k and none that didn't have a mid-drive motor. It was the bikechain bike shop in Taunton. I couldn't see an inner tube for less than £8 either. You don't always have to pay through the nose to get the best product. I personally couldn't see a single bike in the shop that was good value and worth buying.

 

[soundwave]

nothing wrong with mid drive motors my old bosch performance motor was 8 years old and just needed new bearings and a new transfer gear and would be as good as new for 150 quid if i done it myself or peter can do it for 280.

problem with these bikes is locked can bus programming so you cant change any motor settings like a bafang and you have no option to buy there rip off batts as cant be recelled, well they can but it would just cost more than a bosch batt new anyway.
all of them use can bus bar yamaha as they use uart programming so a batt recell is possible but you need the chip to do it but out of stock atm.

yamaha also sell the controller boards and some of the metal gears where near all of the other motor brands dont sell anything at all service wise not even bearings.

the one motor to not buy at all is the shimano motors as will be software locked if it detects the motor casing has been opened and then software bricked forever.

bosch also brick the bms in the batts if you remove power thus why no one in this country can recell them as the only place in the world that can do it is in germany liofit.

but now even bafang is using can bus and locking there batts to the motors and displays so the days of programming your own motors are being killed off.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

That's horrible news about Bafang not the way we want the industry to go especially as we are trying to be more environmentally friendly and use products for longer. I'm not going to claim to be an expert on Bosch motors but have seen many forum postings where Bosch owners have complained about their motors not being economic to repair and not just bearings, some had water ingress destroying the PCB I think and others other mechanical issues. The Brose motor system had a situation where they would destroy themselves and could only be replaced by a new motor which could be around £1000. There are also nylon cogs and belts in some mid-drive motors which are going to need replacement and this is made very difficult or at least expensive to do by the manufacturer.

Contrast that to a direct drive hub motor with no moving parts except the wheel axle and I've seen Grin service a direct drive hub motor after maybe 10s of thousands of miles and that service was pretty damn quick and off it goes again. I would see geared hub motors as somewhere in between mid-drive and direct drive, a little more complicated but still much easier to service and repair especially as controllers can be replaced or repaired easily as external.

I know its not quite the same as its off-road and taking a lot more abuse but remember reading of a Specialized ebike where the rider had destroyed the motor on the second ride and Specialized to their credit extended I think the motor guarantee from 2 to 4 years because of the terrible failure rate but this is on a product that can cost as much as a small car.

People are buying cheap entry level ebikes maybe £300 if bought a year or so back and just riding them. There is no margin in those cheap ebikes for a high return rate and if there was a high return rate then the companies selling them would be losing a serious amount of money. Every return or repair costs a chunk of money to process. There is such a margin on a £8k ebike but certainly isn't on a £500 ebike or less.

If part of why you like ebikes is their environmental benefit then mid-drive seems wrong to me, high cost, short life proprietary products should be resisted.

 

[matthewslack]

If part of why you like ebikes is their environmental benefit then mid-drive seems wrong to me, high cost, short life proprietary products should be resisted.

'Short life', and 'not user repairable' are certainly bad environmentally, but it is not reasonable to classify the mid-drive concept overall as that!

From a materials used point of view direct drive hubs are the worst, and small, geared motors whether in a hub or a mid-drive are much better. Look how much high environmental impact rare earth elements are required. These matter far more than a few plastic or metal gear replacements over the lifetime of a motor. 20 or more geared motors can be made for the same amounts as a single ungeared motor. That's 20 times as much mobility from a given amount of scarce resource.

Look at batteries too. Which motor type is hardest on the battery? So which needs a bigger, higher spec and more frequently replaced battery? Here the consistent low power demand of a mid-drive worked properly through the gears is the lowest impact solution.

So rather than condemn an efficient and elegant solution on the basis of big manfacturers' questionable repair policies, perhaps we should allow that all the technical options have their place and none does everything well.

 

[Andy-Mat]

And don't worry about the 'middle motor single point of failure' nonsense.. There are so many single points of failure in any bike that one more makes no difference. Andy just hates Bosch (and others) though what they ever did to him is not obvious.

I still say "tell the truth and shame the devil", so please be so kind as to inform us all about all the "other" single points of failure you mentioned, but gave no detail.

Why no exact details with names of affected types and their problems?

I would be fascinated to learn more from an expert with full knowledge!

If you do not have the time for any reason, I can write my personal take on that comment of yours, with full mechanical and electrical details of all the problems, which you can add to if you wish (or anyone else here too please!)

One only has to do a search on this website or the internet as a whole, to find that mid motors, especially Bosch, exactly as you mentioned, really do "mis-use" their customers. Some customers ending up with repair costs more than many cars need over a year or three!

Research is always good, preferably before buying!!!

Many thanks in advance for all the detail you apparently have at your finger tips!

Andy

 

[Andy-Mat]

'Short life', and 'not user repairable' are certainly bad environmentally, but it is not reasonable to classify the mid-drive concept overall as that!

From a materials used point of view direct drive hubs are the worst, and small, geared motors whether in a hub or a mid-drive are much better. Look how much high environmental impact rare earth elements are required. These matter far more than a few plastic or metal gear replacements over the lifetime of a motor. 20 or more geared motors can be made for the same amounts as a single ungeared motor. That's 20 times as much mobility from a given amount of scarce resource.

Look at batteries too. Which motor type is hardest on the battery? So which needs a bigger, higher spec and more frequently replaced battery? Here the consistent low power demand of a mid-drive worked properly through the gears is the lowest impact solution.

So rather than condemn an efficient and elegant solution on the basis of big manfacturers' questionable repair policies, perhaps we should allow that all the technical options have their place and none does everything well.

I disagree completely with your assumptions, they do not represent anything that I have experienced with my bikes, or the hub bikes of my friends either!! I would say if they are personal experiences, then you have been MOST unlucky, generally speaking!!!
I've owned two ebikes with simple rear hub motors, and they got used up to 4 times daily.
The first was bought secondhand with one battery, and everything still working (including the 9 year old battery) when I gave it away after 8 years of problem free riding. I do not count the one chain, one rear cassette, and multiple tyres and tubes, plus some parts for the brakes, it was normal wear and tear.
The second is only 5 years old, and after the two problems apparent at delivery were fixed by the importer, but me doing the work, it is still running problem free.
Only one plastic adjuster on the front disk crumbled through UV, and I made new parts in stainless, and it is still working fine!
Also not counting disk pads, tyres and tubes, but still no chain or cassette wear at all.....
Despite my nosiness, I have yet to see the inside of a hub motor of mine, or any of my friends hub bike motors, none of which have had problems either in that area.
I would probably need to go onto YouTube or similar, to see inside one, but I have seen several mid motors being examined, repair was not possible thogh, due to major damages......
Now that is quality and relability comparing mid to hub!!
regards
Andy

 

[lightning]

Mid drive motors are better if you want to ride off road, due the the better control through the gears etc

But the situation regarding motor repairs and (non availability of) spares is appalling, people are buying these bikes at £4,000+ not realising that a few years down the line they could be landfill.

l am one of those people, my E-mtb cost over £4,000 and l've discovered that if the Shimano motor fails out of warranty, l either have to pony up £800+ for a new motor, so long as they are available, or scrap the bike.

The newer version of the motor won't fit either.

 

[Goto11]

Looks like my post and request for help got completely hijacked :-(

Goto

 

[lightning]

You'll be lucky to find anyone who has owned either bike, as there are so many Ebikes to choose from.

l've got a Mirider 1 which is apparently popular but none of my posts about this bike have produced a response from anyone who actually owns one.

However, from your two choices
l would go for the Rockrider because you've got somewhere to take it back if there's any trouble with it, and Decathlon are pretty good with warranty requests.
Plus they've got a workshop on site at most of their stores.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

'Short life', and 'not user repairable' are certainly bad environmentally, but it is not reasonable to classify the mid-drive concept overall as that!

From a materials used point of view direct drive hubs are the worst, and small, geared motors whether in a hub or a mid-drive are much better. Look how much high environmental impact rare earth elements are required. These matter far more than a few plastic or metal gear replacements over the lifetime of a motor. 20 or more geared motors can be made for the same amounts as a single ungeared motor. That's 20 times as much mobility from a given amount of scarce resource.

Look at batteries too. Which motor type is hardest on the battery? So which needs a bigger, higher spec and more frequently replaced battery? Here the consistent low power demand of a mid-drive worked properly through the gears is the lowest impact solution.

So rather than condemn an efficient and elegant solution on the basis of big manfacturers' questionable repair policies, perhaps we should allow that all the technical options have their place and none does everything well.

I take your point about mid-drive's having more rare earth magnets but they are used everywhere aren't they from drills to table fans etc. I don't think that is a fair comparison as compared to an EV like a car there is very little used. They aren't that rare and the fact the motor costs very low money means less resources are put into it. It goes without saying that if a product can be made and sold for £100-200 the labour and materials that goes into are far less than something that costs £1000s.

I think you have it completely wrong on your second point. For legal ebikes mid-drive motors peak far higher for wattage. Bosch 250W motors have been shown to peak at over 700W which is more than comparable 250W direct drive and geared hub motors. It's like EU regulators are turning a blind eye to mid-drive as many are from European brands mainly German and they are far above the rated and nominal capacity of 250W. Also factor in the non-repairable nature of many battery packs for mid-drive motors I would say typically far worse environmentally.

Typically pre-built hub motor ebikes have lower capacity batteries than mid-drive and obviously price is a huge factor here. I don't think I've seen a mid-drive motor less than 380Wh but hub motor ebikes start at around 190Wh. Yes custom ebike builders whether mid-drive or hub will likely go for big batteries some of the time but bigger batteries share the current draw more per cell so can have extended life and of course those packs are more easily replaced or repaired. I don't feel there is anything here to really compare against each type of motor system except the proprietary nature of many mid-drive motor's batteries.

Maybe you are trying to get across the fact that mid-drive scales power through the gears and so uses less in higher gears than lower gears but Grin has done measurements regarding motor types and I think from what I've seen the most efficient is a geared hub motor with the clutch/freewheel disabled to allow regen and that was something like 6-7Wh per kilometre I think however I think that is with an always on arrangement. Probably a geared hub with freewheel/clutch is the most efficient because it remains the lowest weight drivetrain with the least drag so is a more efficient bike unpowered and so easier to use for longer sessions without power at all. Also remember there is significant efficiency loss in the chain and in the internal gears of mid-drive motors. In the end according to Grin there is very little difference in efficiency between different motor types because of many variables. Direct drive is in theory the most efficient because it is a pure brushless motor without any moving parts so provides great electrical efficiency with no mechanical loss but then factor in the greater weight and more resistance when unpowered then it isn't so good but then add in regen and it recovers a lot of efficiency.

It's something you hear in bike showrooms for expensive mid-drive ebikes but in reality there isn't much difference between motor systems with regard efficiency.

The advantage I feel for mid-drive is the high rpm of the little motor in the bottom bracket and scaling that power through the gears it means greater hill climbing power for high torque mid-drive motors. That doesn't equate to better hill climbing for low torque mid-drive motors i.e. those around 40-60Nm unless they have low gears less than 1:1 many hub motors can easily match those for hill climbing. Many mid-drive ebikes don't even have 1:1 gearing so if you get a bike with a 42T front chainring and a 34T maximum cog and 40Nm at the crank its hill climbing ability is compromised by the gearing and the power losses through the chain. If you start at 40Nm you will probably be down to something like 38Nm because of losses in the drivetrain and the gearing means you will have about 30Nm and many hub motors happily produce 45Nm so will be significantly better up hills. At that point I question the whole point of such mid-drive motors it just seems all disadvantages and no advantages.

 

[matthewslack]

I take your point about mid-drive's having more rare earth magnets but they are used everywhere aren't they from drills to table fans etc. I don't think that is a fair comparison as compared to an EV like a car there is very little used. They aren't that rare and the fact the motor costs very low money means less resources are put into it. It goes without saying that if a product can be made and sold for £100-200 the labour and materials that goes into are far less than something that costs £1000s.

I think you have it completely wrong on your second point. For legal ebikes mid-drive motors peak far higher for wattage. Bosch 250W motors have been shown to peak at over 700W which is more than comparable 250W direct drive and geared hub motors. It's like EU regulators are turning a blind eye to mid-drive as many are from European brands mainly German and they are far above the rated and nominal capacity of 250W. Also factor in the non-repairable nature of many battery packs for mid-drive motors I would say typically far worse environmentally.

Typically pre-built hub motor ebikes have lower capacity batteries than mid-drive and obviously price is a huge factor here. I don't think I've seen a mid-drive motor less than 380Wh but hub motor ebikes start at around 190Wh. Yes custom ebike builders whether mid-drive or hub will likely go for big batteries some of the time but bigger batteries share the current draw more per cell so can have extended life and of course those packs are more easily replaced or repaired. I don't feel there is anything here to really compare against each type of motor system except the proprietary nature of many mid-drive motor's batteries.

Maybe you are trying to get across the fact that mid-drive scales power through the gears and so uses less in higher gears than lower gears but Grin has done measurements regarding motor types and I think from what I've seen the most efficient is a geared hub motor with the clutch/freewheel disabled to allow regen and that was something like 6-7Wh per kilometre I think however I think that is with an always on arrangement. Probably a geared hub with freewheel/clutch is the most efficient because it remains the lowest weight drivetrain with the least drag so is a more efficient bike unpowered and so easier to use for longer sessions without power at all. Also remember there is significant efficiency loss in the chain and in the internal gears of mid-drive motors. In the end according to Grin there is very little difference in efficiency between different motor types because of many variables. Direct drive is in theory the most efficient because it is a pure brushless motor without any moving parts so provides great electrical efficiency with no mechanical loss but then factor in the greater weight and more resistance when unpowered then it isn't so good but then add in regen and it recovers a lot of efficiency.

It's something you hear in bike showrooms for expensive mid-drive ebikes but in reality there isn't much difference between motor systems with regard efficiency.

The advantage I feel for mid-drive is the high rpm of the little motor in the bottom bracket and scaling that power through the gears it means greater hill climbing power for high torque mid-drive motors. That doesn't equate to better hill climbing for low torque mid-drive motors i.e. those around 40-60Nm unless they have low gears less than 1:1 many hub motors can easily match those for hill climbing. Many mid-drive ebikes don't even have 1:1 gearing so if you get a bike with a 42T front chainring and a 34T maximum cog and 40Nm at the crank its hill climbing ability is compromised by the gearing and the power losses through the chain. If you start at 40Nm you will probably be down to something like 38Nm because of losses in the drivetrain and the gearing means you will have about 30Nm and many hub motors happily produce 45Nm so will be significantly better up hills. At that point I question the whole point of such mid-drive motors it just seems all disadvantages and no advantages.

Hi Bonzo,
I'm going to listen to the OP who was not impressed at being hijacked yesterday! Happy to discuss this but perhaps start a thread for it? Cheers!

 

[Nealh]

Decathlon seem to have a good track record for warranty and returns.

 

[GSV3MiaC]

I still say "tell the truth and shame the devil", so please be so kind as to inform us all about all the "other" single points of failure you mentioned, but gave no detail.

Why no exact details with names of affected types and their problems?

Cos ii assumed you and the rest of the forum could work out that a bike with broken front forks, seat post, wheel bearing, etc etc would also need pushing. Apparently you regard a chain as a unique case for some reason. Or maybe you just like to argue.

 

[Andy-Mat]

Cos ii assumed you and the rest of the forum could work out that a bike with broken front forks, seat post, wheel bearing, etc etc would also need pushing. Apparently you regard a chain as a unique case for some reason. Or maybe you just like to argue.

Still no REAL facts.
If you yourself believe in such "fairy Tales", which is your prerogative of course, but I refuse to.
I myself need hard facts, not dreams. I have recently found out that Pedelers generally feel the same way as I do, except for the mid motor owners!.....
So to help us ALL here, please state owner, make/model and dates of each of YOUR singe point of failure(s) that you mentioned.
I myself have been riding bikes of all types for around 66 years, and I know of NO instances, other than some mid motor e-bikes, where such problems do occurr, and are documented on the internet and on Pedelec as well.
But I am willing to be fully informed by you, but only when you are "factual" and not dreaming, seemingly trying to make trouble with your fancies!!!!
Thanks in advance for all the true facts that you are going to supply us in the next few days.
Or as in the old, old saying:- "Put up or shut up!"
Awaiting true and honest facts shortly.
Surely some of the "Bosch Brigade" here will help you out from the predicament you have seemingly caused yourself?
And let me just say that I myself do not believe a single word on the subject that you have uttered up to now, and futhermore, I still do not even know what model and make of bike you own!
For info only, mine is a Stark rear hub motor with 26" wheels, that I bought in 2017 (or 2016!), when they first started the crowd funding, mine was the #116 one off the line.....Best buy of my life! It cost me £935 if I remember correctly, all but one of the extras, paniers, chain bike lock, full suspension front and back, all taxes and transport costs included.
Plus it has no CANBUS or similar crap, thankfully, that bricks the controller if power is lost for any reason!
I wish you a good day and do please answer all OUR queries, within the next 7 days would be really great!
Andy
PS. Just for you my bike:-

The most affordable, complete electric transportation provider from $499!

Stark Drive produces the most affordable electric transportation solutions in the world, be it by ground or air. Easy to factory upgrade. Starting at an unbelievable $499. It’s cheap! No kidding mate!

starkdrive.bike

I see that it is now $499, instead of $399 as it was when I bought it, so reckoning with about £1,000 if bought as I did, now. So still very cheap and very easy to upgrade further if needed. Repairs, if needed, could be done by anyone with reasonable knowledge, or just about most LBSs... Parts cheap and easy to source.
Nuff said!