Brexit, for once some facts.

Woosh

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If you don't count your beans, you have no idea how many beans you have.

It is easy, and all too often appropriate, to criticise those who do that job. And the narrow focus (make every cost you can an externality, etc.). But we do need those numbers otherwise we cannot know if we have enough beans, or you have more than you need.
Truss and KK don't believe they need to count, they just got the BoE to print £65 billions for them to spend last Wednesday. No wonder they can't see how they can fail.
You want growth? They'll print some more.
 

Woosh

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the Pound and FTSE rose a bit before Truss & KK meet with the OBR but after the meeting, the OBR won't publish its forecast until 23-November.
Predictable reaction: Pound and FTSE fell.
 
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oyster

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Perhaps the entire rest of Ukraine should declare itself part of, say, Germany, France, UK, USA? (Albeit on a temporary basis.)

Thus making every single Russian bullet an attack on a full NATO member.

(Obviously facetious. But if Putin can change the definitions of countries by fiat, so too can the rest of us.)
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Perhaps the entire rest of Ukraine should declare itself part of, say, Germany, France, UK, USA? (Albeit on a temporary basis.)

Thus making every single Russian bullet an attack on a full NATO member.

(Obviously facetious. But if Putin can change the definitions of countries by fiat, so too can the rest of us.)
That's a bit the wrong way round, one of those other countries would have to attack the remainder of Ukraine to be the equivalent.

Perhaps a better scheme would be for Ukraine, as the independent country that it is, to ask NATO to peacefully enter Ukraine to make it a protectorate under UN oversight for a set period, say ten or twenty years.

The reason being the protection of Human Rights under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

That would make it impossible for Russia to attack any current Ukrainian territory without a world backed response.

It's a bit late now of course, that should have been Ukraine's response when Russia's forces gathered on their border and before they crossed it, thus preventing the war starting.
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oyster

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That's a bit the wrong way round, one of those other countries would have to attack the remainder of Ukraine to be the equivalent.

Perhaps a better scheme would be for Ukraine, as the independent country that it is, to ask NATO to peacefully enter Ukraine to make it a protectorate under UN oversight for a set period, say ten or twenty years.

The reason being the protection of Human Rights under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

That would make it impossible for Russia to attack any current Ukrainian territory without a world backed response.

It's a bit late now of course, that should have been Ukraine's response when Russia's forces gathered on their border and before they crossed it, thus preventing the war starting.
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I'm not suggesting equivalence of how it got to that staus. Just that once under NATO protection - however achieved - it does rather make Russia the aggressor against NATO which might not be a wonderful idea. For anyone.
 

flecc

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I'm not suggesting equivalence of how it got to that staus. Just that once under NATO protection - however achieved - it does rather make Russia the aggressor against NATO which might not be a wonderful idea. For anyone.
Which is why I suggested it would be better done peacefully under UN protection.

Avoiding it making it a war or Russia against NATO.
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Danidl

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That's a bit the wrong way round, one of those other countries would have to attack the remainder of Ukraine to be the equivalent.

Perhaps a better scheme would be for Ukraine, as the independent country that it is, to ask NATO to peacefully enter Ukraine to make it a protectorate under UN oversight for a set period, say ten or twenty years.

The reason being the protection of Human Rights under the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

That would make it impossible for Russia to attack any current Ukrainian territory without a world backed response.

It's a bit late now of course, that should have been Ukraine's response when Russia's forces gathered on their border and before they crossed it, thus preventing the war starting.
.
The point here was that nobody back in February ,with the exception of the US ..and maybe UK believed that Russia would actually invade. Most certainly the Ukrainians did not believe it. Everything points to that. My belief is that had not the US A spy planes and radar looking down at the borders, the first anyone would have known was when Russian reinforcements were landing at the airport at Kyiv. As it was it was a very close thing with the initial Russian paratroops having got there and setting up their perimeter. It was a a jury rigged hodgepodge of Ukrainian military units who scrambled to get there.
It took the Germans at least a week to realise they had been taken for fools over the previous 15 years.
 
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oldgroaner

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If you don't count your beans, you have no idea how many beans you have.

It is easy, and all too often appropriate, to criticise those who do that job. And the narrow focus (make every cost you can an externality, etc.). But we do need those numbers otherwise we cannot know if we have enough beans, or you have more than you need.
This is pretty revolutionary stuff, but to be fair it hasn't bothered our Governments in the past has it?
And now as a nation we are acknowledged to be "Has beans":D
 
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flecc

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The point here was that nobody back in February ,with the exception of the US ..and maybe UK believed that Russia would actually invade. Most certainly the Ukrainians did not believe it.
So it was their own fault for not realising the obvious? They were clearly well aware of the huge transfer of Russian forces into Belarus under the patent guise of it being an exercise. And they already had the experience of Russia seizing the Crimea from them. And had known for decades of Russia's even more obvious claim on Donbass by infiltrating forces and armaments.

How much more warning did they expect before taking elementary precautions, even on a "just in case" basis?

As I posted from the outset, even before the invasion, peace was not only possible but easy to achieve. Don't be fooled by Zelenskyy, a thinly disguised far right winger who has always been up for the fight and clearly revels in it.
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jonathan.agnew

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So it was their own fault for not realising the obvious? They were clearly well aware of the huge transfer of Russian forces into Belarus under the patent guise of it being an exercise. And they already had the experience of Russia seizing the Crimea from them. And had known for decades of Russia's even more obvious claim on Donbass by infiltrating forces and armaments.

How much more warning did they expect before taking elementary precautions, even on a "just in case" basis?

As I posted from the outset, even before the invasion, peace was not only possible but easy to achieve. Don't be fooled by Zelenskyy, a thinly disguised far right winger who has always been up for the fight and clearly revels in it.
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you and soundwave need to cut back on the Caribbean cabbage. give the brown Buddha a break. cut out the cactus green. say goodbye to Dan K Budinhash. seriously if one have to take up a counterpoint there has to be a better argument than victim blaming.
 
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flecc

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you and soundwave need to cut back on the Caribbean cabbage. give the brown Buddha a break. cut out the cactus green. say goodbye to Dan K Budinhash. seriously if one have to take up a counterpoint there has to be a better argument than victim blaming.
I've never used any such drugs in my life if that is what you are referring to, nor ever would.
.
 

soundwave

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but none of those are strains of any weed tho you just cant make them up and i use a vape ;)
 

jonathan.agnew

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I've never used any such drugs in my life if that is what you are referring to, nor ever would.
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but none of those are strains of any weed tho you just cant make them up and i use a vape ;)
Yes, the reference to reverend green, alfalfa, astro turf, Dona juanita (not only can i make it up, as Tarantino might say, I have) isnt about good giggles. It's by way of saying I think your argument (whether blaming US for Nordstream or ukraine for the invasion) owe more to intoxication than deduction.
 
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soundwave

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what you on about i blew it up im saving the planet so i can burn my pallets :rolleyes:
 

oldgroaner

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And this is the other end wall of the living room
View attachment 49011
The other rooms and stairs are equally cluttered with more of the same.
They are largely of places Pat and I have holidayed in over the years, and apart from helping keep me entertained during the long days when Pat is in bed, they are intended to help retain what little memory remains to her, sometimes even prompting her to ask about the time and date we visited them.
 

Woosh

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Perhaps a better scheme would be for Ukraine, as the independent country that it is, to ask NATO to peacefully enter Ukraine to make it a protectorate under UN oversight for a set period, say ten or twenty years.
Putin does not care for the authority of the UN. He threatens everyone blocking his way with nuclear weapons.
I think we should drop one on his house.
 
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oyster

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Putin does not care for the authority of the UN. He threatens everyone blocking his way with nuclear weapons.
I think we should drop one on his house.
A thought struck me yesterday about Putin's habitual distancing himself from everyone else.

If someone did want to plant a bomb, they could quite possibly be in the same room when it went off and get away largely unscathed.

(Doesn't really help much as planting a device is likely to be close to impossible.)
 

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