Brexit, for once some facts.

[GLJoe]

And the point you fail to accept is UK ICUs have many covid patients in them 80% of whom are unvaccinated.

Can you give me a link to where you're getting this 80% figure?
I've just looked, and all I can come up with is this table from the latest government statistics that shows admissions to emergency care requiring overnight stay, and this one seems to show that there are more total vaccinated going in that unvaccinated. Do you have data specific to the ICUs as I can't find that at the moment.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1041593/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-50.pdf

 

[flecc]

Flecc, I, m agreeing with you.
Perhaps it isn't a vaccine. I don't care what NHS call it. I, m saying the injection has saved lives, has kept number in hospital within acceptable levels and has kept people off intubation.

What annoys me about all this is the crap about saving the NHS.

Sod the NHS, we aren't here to save the NHS, the bloody NHS which costs us billions is here to save us when we need it, but instead it constantly fails us.

That isn't the fault of the NHS of course, it's the fault of the government for starving it into its present sorry state, but all the government crap about saving the NHS is only to disguise that fact.

All the silly people clapping and praising the NHS are in fact only excusing the government for letting us down so badly.

It's time all the people started shouting the truth above to hold the government to account, and stop sheeplike repeating the government propaganda to get them off the hook.
.

 

[Woosh]

Question is will higher infection lead to NHS being overwhelmed.

it will. If you think just one kid catching covid at school can force me to close from today to January 4th, how many small companies will be in the same situation in January when the kids go back to school?
The NHS employs 1.3 million people. I reckon 10% will be forced to stay at home throughout the winter.
The economic cost is immense now that interest rate is going up and we are saddled with more than 2.2 trillion pounds worth of national debt, just wait for the end of January.
There may not be official lockdown but the government will have to make strong recommendations to keep the numbers of cases down.

 

[Zlatan]

ICU is full of the unvaccinated – my patience with them is wearing thin | Anonymous

Most of the resources we are devoting to Covid in hospital are being spent on people who have not had jab, says an NHS consultant

www.theguardian.com

I, ve seen stats around this... See if I can find them again. Not sure NHS like idea of promoting bias, prejudice even against unvaccinated.

Covid patients in ICU now almost all unvaccinated, says Oxford scientist

Prof Sir Andrew Pollard says most of those infected who are fully vaccinated will experience only mild symptoms

www.theguardian.com

Intensive care beds filled with unvaccinated Covid patients

Hundreds of intensive care beds that could be used for life-saving surgery are instead occupied by unvaccinated Covid patients, one of NHS England’s top officia

www.thetimes.co.uk

Using the last graphic to calculate a comparison it works out (or did when these figures were released) that an unvaccinated person is 8.8 times as likely to end up in ICU than a vaccinated. (Think I said 9 last time, does depend how comparison is calculated but it's between 5 and 9 times more likely to end in ICU for unvaccinated)
If you consider the 70% is coming from roughly 20% of population and the 20% in there coming from 80% of population. Even if numbers were same in ICU from vaccinated to unvaccinated since there are roughly 4 times more vaccinated in population would mean chance of vaccinated being there would be quartered. (apparently that is case in Spain)
For some reason our ICU occupancy is even more pronounced..(towards holding non vaccinated)

 

[jonathan.agnew]

it will. If you think just one kid catching covid at school can force me to close from today to January 4th, how many small companies will be in the same situation in January when the kids go back to school?
The NHS employs 1.3 million people. I reckon 10% will be forced to stay at home throughout the winter.
The economic cost is immense now that interest rate is going up and we are saddled with more than 2.2 trillion pounds worth of national debt, just wait for the end of January.
There may not be official lockdown but the government will have to make strong recommendations to keep the numbers of cases down.

Somewhere down the line there is an enormous economic boobytrap with energy prices increasing again in November (after april) and the effect of that on inflation, interest rates, consumption, govt debt

 

[Woosh]

Somewhere down the line there is an enormous economic boobytrap with energy prices increasing again in November (after april) and the effect of that on inflation, interest rates, consumption, govt debt

I reckon government will provide the jabs and that's it.
We will be forced to take responsibility how to live with covid for ourselves.
There will come a point when the current testing regime becomes pointless.
It won't change the winter and summer waves.
So scrap the 17 billion a year test and trace, give that money to the NHS, we'll have to make do with hospital admission and death statistics.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

I already know that the immunity from prior infection is superior, since London's dependency on it has resulted in far lower deaths for both the Alpha and Delta waves than the rest of the country who were far more dependent on the vaccines.

This is what Professor Spiegelhalter also belatedly spotted, and also the Professor who Danidl quoted, and they are not being contradicted by the medical experts.

And of course we officially know that the vaccines decline in efficiency very rapidly, the need for boosting at three months being too short to cover the Delta wave period for those vaccinated in the early days.

I've already made my decision on more of the same via boosters. It's a firm no until Pharma comes up with a genuine improvement that more effectively prevents infection as well as alleviating if caught, and these benefits for at least a year.

No-one has any idea what the consequences of the present jab every three months will be and Covid is simply not serious enough for the risk to be taken.
.

That more or less summarises my concerns. The constant (at present never ending) cycle of boosters every 16 weeks is an unknown risk. I don’t think there is any historical data to go on for vaccinating so frequently and for an indefinite period. Stimulating the immune system so frequently and for such a sustained period is an unknown.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Well JC, I suspect I am already on my 25 th. dose or jab of the flu vaccine , so getting a 4th. Will not disturb me.

I see where you are coming from, but you aren’t getting a flu jab every 16 weeks. It’s the frequency which raises low to moderate concerns for me.

 

[Zlatan]

Somewhere down the line there is an enormous economic boobytrap with energy prices increasing again in November (after april) and the effect of that on inflation, interest rates, consumption, govt debt

The Govt debt is especially worrying. Its over double previous high record levels. We are in unchartered waters.

 

[flecc]

Somewhere down the line there is an enormous economic boobytrap with energy prices increasing again in November (after april) and the effect of that on inflation, interest rates, consumption, govt debt

I've just heard a forecast that energy prices will rise a further 50% in the spring. That will be a catastrophe for many households.

What I'm wondering is what has happened to all the very low cost wind power generation that the government assured us existed?

Is it all an expensive myth like "the too low to charge for" nuclear energy of the 1950s?
.

 

[Danidl]

No, no, no. How many times?

The primary function of a vaccine is to prevent infection. That has always been the definition and our dishonest govenment cannot just change the meaning of our words to suit their political agenda.

You and many others agreed with me on this on March 8th, but now like many you've changed to the government's distorted meaning.

Treating Covid was never at any time a primary function of the vaccines. It just ended that way when the vaccines failed to prevent catching the disease so only the compensation of preventing suffering was left to brag about.

And I don't understand why you are arguing when I promote having the two jab vaccine as much as anyone.

But I won't support having a repeat of the same every three months ad infinitum.

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the very definition of madness.

Any eventual different result could be very unwelcome. I'm equally very opposed to the jabs for the very young.
.

Flecc ... Its not the "dishonest UK Government" in this instance, its all the CDCs world wide and the WHO, so unless you want to get a GIJoe rep. .. for conspiracy madness. Had Covid not gone Delta, the double shot might have been sufficient. But as I said earlier, our Tainiste Leo,.who in his dayjob was a A&E Registrar. made the point a few times that it was a 3 jab treatment. Unfortunately March was then, this is now.. 1200 times the viral production with Delta and 2400 times the viral production with Omicron, compared with Alpha has consequences.
Now there are multiple vaccines which require multiple jabs to give the levels of immunity they provide. And there are plenty of well known vaccines .. including the MMR, which gives lower absolute levels of immunity than did the Pfizer pre Delta.

 

[Zlatan]

earliNews

newsfeed.upday.com

109k infections today.. But...

 

[Woosh]

I've just heard a forecast that energy prices will rise a further 50% in the spring. That will be a catastrophe for many households.

What I'm wondering is what has happened to all the very low cost wind power generation that the government assured us existed?

Is it all an expensive myth like "the too low to charge for" nuclear energy of the 1950s?
.

natural gas has been incredibly cheap for so long that is why I can't switch to any other way of heating.
The current wholesale price of natural gas is 112.5p per therm, one therm = 29.3kWH so the wholesale price of energy for heating is about 3.84p per kWH.
For comparison, wind power is sold to the national grid at around 5.8p per kWH.

 

[Danidl]

What annoys me about all this is the crap about saving the NHS.

Sod the NHS, we aren't here to save the NHS, the bloody NHS which costs us billions is here to save us when we need it, but instead it constantly fails us.

That isn't the fault of the NHS of course, it's the fault of the government for starving it into its present sorry state, but all the government crap about saving the NHS is only to disguise that fact.

All the silly people clapping and praising the NHS are in fact only excusing the government for letting us down so badly.

It's time all the people started shouting the truth above to hold the government to account, and stop sheeplike repeating the government propaganda to get them off the hook.
.

Fully agree with you on these sentiments.... I felt the original happy clapping was a bit cringeworthy, but since the pandemic had just exploded, that March 2020 and those folks were in the front line , probably justified . But paying them better would be a better level of appreciation. After July 2020, the UK Governments response fell increasingly short . Ours was a bit better, but then started to mirror the UK.

 

[Nev]

I've already made my decision on more of the same via boosters. It's a firm no until Pharma comes up with a genuine improvement that more effectively prevents infection as well as alleviating if caught, and these benefits for at least a year.

Latest research seems to show protection from Omicron via booster wanes by between 15 and 25% after 10 weeks see link below.

I don't really want to have a booster ever few months because I agree with you, absolutely no one knows what that might do long term to people. I think though I will wait until there is more information available regarding Omicron. If it turns out to be as strong as Delta then I will probably have a booster, on the other hand if it gives most people no more than cold like symptoms then I will probably take my chance and not have a booster.

One other thing to consider though is what sanctions might be put in place either by this country or other countries if you don't have regular boosters. I don't go on holiday abroad as often as I used to but lots of countries might insist people have to have a regular booster if they want to visit.

Here is the link referred to above.
Omicron up to 70% less likely to need hospital care - BBC News

 

[Danidl]

Latest research seems to show protection from Omicron via booster wanes by between 15 and 25% after 10 weeks see link below.

I don't really want to have a booster ever few months because I agree with you, absolutely no one knows what that might do long term to people. I think though I will wait until there is more information available regarding Omicron. If it turns out to be as strong as Delta then I will probably have a booster, on the other hand if it gives most people no more than cold like symptoms then I will probably take my chance and not have a booster.

One other thing to consider though is what sanctions might be put in place either by this country or other countries if you don't have regular boosters. I don't go on holiday abroad as often as I used to but lots of countries might insist people have to have a regular booster if they want to visit.

Here is the link referred to above.
Omicron up to 70% less likely to need hospital care - BBC News

The information regarding Omicron is very sketchy at present, and our data in Ireland exactly mirrors what the BBC is saying ... Higher infection, but less hospitalisation at present , . But we don't have enough data to determine whether the unvaxxed will get it bad . Its just too early to know. Likewise the WHO are saying the same thing.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

I've just heard a forecast that energy prices will rise a further 50% in the spring. That will be a catastrophe for many households.

What I'm wondering is what has happened to all the very low cost wind power generation that the government assured us existed?

Is it all an expensive myth like "the too low to charge for" nuclear energy of the 1950s?
.

With the rise in National Insurance and quite possibly interest rates, that will see a lot of people go under. Might be a good time to buy myself a new car and maybe another cheap house.

 

[GLJoe]

View attachment 45097

Can someone help me out here...
I'm looking for the original data that gave the chart above. I can see its from ICNARC, so I go here:
https://www.icnarc.org/Our-Audit/Audits/Cmp/Reports
I download the top 'related files'
And it does seem to have some information:
"Figure 27. Percentage of admissions to criƟcal care with confirmed COVID-19 by vaccinaƟon status for paƟents admiƩed 1 May 2021 to 15 November
2021 compared with the general populaƟon"

However looking at that, I'd say its showing that while back in May, there indeed did seem to be around 75% of the critically ill being on the unvaccinated category, but as of Nov, it now seems to show about 45% unvaccinated, while around 50% are the double jabbed
??
Why the discrepancy with the graph Zlatan posted ??

 

[flecc]

One other thing to consider though is what sanctions might be put in place either by this country or other countries if you don't have regular boosters.

This is easy for me, I don't holiday abroad or go to any mass entertainment venues, so there's nothing they can do to me.

But in any case there will be mass rebellion against ongoing three monthly jabs. 29% of Londoners have refused any jabs at all, do they have 2.4 million prison cells for them?

And cells for the 4.3 million additional people in the rest of the country who have refused any jabs at all?

So you can stop worrying, the government have painted themselve s into a corner with the regulations. Those 7 million refusenicks are your protection, they are enough to keep any party out of power for ever.

As I posted the other day, from now on the people decide the policy on Covid. The government reached the limit of its powers over the person with the booster.
.

 

[flecc]

Flecc ... Its not the "dishonest UK Government" in this instance, its all the CDCs world wide and the WHO,

Of course it's not a conspiracy, they are all stuck with the inability of the vaccines to prevent infection, so have to lean back on the antigenic effects for their reduced benefit.

Now there are multiple vaccines which require multiple jabs to give the levels of immunity they provide.

Perhaps you'd like to list those that need a jab every three months?

And there are plenty of well known vaccines .. including the MMR, which gives lower absolute levels of immunity than did the Pfizer pre Delta.

Yet no measles, mumps or rubella epidemics once people are jabbed, they all promptly virtually disappear, unlike Covid-19 after Pfizer. So no, I don't agree.
.