Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

What a pathetic level of governing - can't make decisions, so hold cod competitions. If a place has a decent case, let them make it and judgement made. If they haven't, let them shut up and stop squawking.

City status: The 39 towns competing for an upgrade revealed

We in Croydon have given up with no bid this time. Many times previously we've bid, only to be overlooked in favour of all sorts of odd little places.

Our borough has a population far larger than the majority of existing cities. We have one of the largest commercial centres in the country outside of the City of London, nicknamed Little Manhattan, and we are major contributors to the national budget.

Our history extends back to the start of the 9th century and we were the home of the head of the C of E, the Archbishop of Canterbury from the 11th century until the mid 19th century. Eleven of the Archbishops of Canterbury are buried here. There is a Bishop of Croydon and Croydon's old town church is a Minster church with the Vicar of Croydon there being the C of E's senior vicar.

We are the home of the oldest continuously working market in the country, the home of the oldest continuously working forge in the country and the home of the oldest continuously occupied alms houses in the country, still fully occupied today. Both the market and the Alms Houses were founded by early Archbishops of Canterbury.

Some of our exclusive private schools like Whitgift, Royal Russell and Trinity at Whitgift have had more royal visits than Eton or Harrow.

So how we have not been appointed a city is baffling, possibly a matter of the unfair public image that Croydon sometimes has, or just London not wanting a third internal city to add to the City of London and the City of Westminster.
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[Woosh]

But what would you say constitutes a 'balanced diet' ?

give me mo to think about it.
Big breakfast at McDonald's, lunch at KFC with a large cup of cola and pizza and beer for dinner?

 

[flecc]

You may be right.
But what would you say constitutes a 'balanced diet' ?

One where you don't become so bloated that you fall over.

Seriously we are all too different for any one diet to be correct for all. One's diet needs to be tailored to suit. To be healthy and balanced it needs to include a very wide range of foods but with every component in moderation. Ultimately every food is a poison when in sufficient excess.
.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

You may be right.
But what would you say constitutes a 'balanced diet' ?

A few triple shots of illy and steamed milk for breakfast (caffeine aid cell metabolism), an almost raw rump steak for lunch and fish and chips for dinner followed by a slow run and sleep with technicolor nightmares? We all die in the end, may as well enjoy the journey

 

[oyster]

I, d have fourth tomorrow,

I think you have wait a bit longer than that - five and a bit months to go - then may the fourth be with you.

 

[Zlatan]

give me mo to think about it.
Big breakfast at McDonald's, lunch at KFC with a large cup of cola and pizza and beer for dinner?

Don't forget treacle sponge and chocolate cake..

 

[Zlatan]

I think you have wait a bit longer than that - five and a bit months to go - then may the fourth be with you.

Not sure about that, friend who is immuno compromised owing to long term cancer treatments has been called in for her fourth jab next week. Won't be long before they work down with that...

 

[flecc]

I do see yours and JC's point but it would be very ironic to get Covid in last wave

Covid just isn't serious enough to take risks, from the outset as I've always maintained it's been ridiculously hyped compared to previous pandemics.

The Black Death was a true pandemic, killing 33%.

Spanish Flu just about qualified, only killing 0.6% in the UK in two years, but with many of them young making it more serious.

Covid 19 has killed just 0.21% in the UK over two years, the vast majority old and close to their normal death age anyway.

Like Spanish 'flu and the Black Death it will die out shortly, just like all pandemics. That is regardless of the vaccines which haven't worked, viz: 72,000 UK deaths in the 11 pandemic months to 31st December 2020 with no vaccines, 72,000 UK deaths in the 11 vaccine months to the 30th November 2021.

Ergo, Covid-19 isn't remotely as serious as has been hyped and the vaccines are nowhere near as effective as has been hyped. We are beating Covid without them just as well as with.
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[Zlatan]

View attachment 45093

Difference is tho those having had even one jab do have some recognition in their immune systems of Covid.
Totally unvaccinated and those with no previous covid infections even next year will be facing a completely novel disease for them.
I suspect all the talk about Omicron being milder is far more to do with combination of prior infection and vaccines. Anti vaxxers will probably be facing an equally potent foe as they would have 2 years ago and with a far higher chance of being infected. Suspect covid has never been as rife. And the point you fail to accept is UK ICUs have many covid patients in them 80% of whom are unvaccinated. Effectively that means 80% of ICU covid patients come from 15% (there or thereabouts but certainly under 20%) of our population. You are 5 times more likely to require ICU treatment than the equivalent same age/sex/background vaccinated person. That is fact. Not interpretation of data or an opinion. Simple conclusion from ICU occupancy... And in mean time those people who could have avoided their plight are taking beds up of people there by no fault of their own. The unvaccinated in there must take much responsibility for their situation.

 

[oldgroaner]

This makes more sense

 

[Zlatan]

Covid just isn't serious enough to take risks, from the outset as I've always maintained it's been ridiculously hyped compared to previous pandemics.

The Black Death was a true pandemic, killing 33%.

Spanish Flu just about qualified, only killing 0.6% in the UK in two years, but with many of them young making it more serious.

Covid 19 has killed just 0.21% in the UK over two years, the vast majority old and close to their normal death age anyway.

Like Spanish 'flu and the Black Death it will die out shortly, just like all pandemics. That is regardless of the vaccines which haven't worked, viz: 72,000 UK deaths in the 11 pandemic months to 31st December 2020 with no vaccines, 72,000 UK deaths in the 11 vaccine months to the 30th November 2021.

Ergo, Covid-19 isn't remotely as serious as has been hyped and the vaccines are nowhere near as effective as has been hyped. We are beating Covid without them just as well as with.
.

I do see your point Flecc, and I have argued myself Covid and specifically Omicron has been exaggerated... But, I do think you are ignoring the benefits afforded by vaccines.
Life had returned to normal, football grounds, restaurants, etc etc were full and we were not seeing figures beyond NHS capabilities. That is the vaccine effect. It's quite easy to dismiss those gains but what has kept infection levels at the 40k a day level for months. It certainly isn't test and trace, it certainly isn't our behaviour... Its the vaccine flecc.
And, were it not for unvaccinated our ICUs would have been almost empty of Covid patients.

 

[Woosh]

Life had returned to normal, football grounds, restaurants, etc etc were full and we were not seeing figures beyond NHS capabilities.

wait for after Christmas. I wouldn't be surprised to see the positive cases hitting 200,000 a day.
We managed until last week without any of us catching it.
Then last week, a child of one of us brought covid home, 3 days later, her father tested positive.
Now all of us have to isolate at home. All of us have had 3 jabs.
Just apply the same scenario to the NHS. How many do you think will have to isolate after the new year?
because the majority of those in hospital have not been vaccinated so fewer hospital patients this year compared to last but there is no guarantee that they don't arrive at once after Christmas.

 

[flecc]

I do see your point Flecc, and I have argued myself Covid and specifically Omicron has been exaggerated... But, I do think you are ignoring the benefits afforded by vaccines.

No I'm not, I've from my first vaccine post on March 8th recommended we all get vaccinated ASAP, stressing it three times in that post.

But ICU is not a vaccine issue, it's an antigen issue, the so called vaccines effectively treating Covid after it's been caught.

That should never be confused with the real issue, that the vaccines alone are doing nothing to prevent the spread of Covid and arguably increase the infection rate as I've shown. The vast majority of the unvaccinated who get infected, over 97%, do not enter ICU or die and are no worse than the vaccinated at spreading Covid.

Those 72,000 deaths per 11 months with and without prove it, especially when the government deliberately fiddled the 2010 deaths total to make it that high. In truth there were more deaths with the vaccines in the 2021 11 months than without the vaccines in the 2020 11 months.
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[Zlatan]

wait for after Christmas. I wouldn't be surprised to see the positive cases hitting 200,000 a day.
We managed until last week without any of us catching it.
Then last week, a child of one of us brought covid home, 3 days later, her father tested positive.
Now all of us have to isolate at home. All of us have had 3 jabs.
Just apply the same scenario to the NHS. How many do you think will have to isolate after the new year?

Agreed and possibly but without vaccines that would have been case months ago.. Omicron breakout infections are proving how effective vaccines were against Delta.
Question is will higher infection lead to NHS being overwhelmed.

 

[Danidl]

Difference is tho those having had even one jab do have some recognition in their immune systems of Covid.
Totally unvaccinated and those with no previous covid infections even next year will be facing a completely novel disease for them.
I suspect all the talk about Omicron being milder is far more to do with combination of prior infection and vaccines. Anti vaxxers will probably be facing an equally potent foe as they would have 2 years ago and with a far higher chance of being infected. Suspect covid has never been as rife. And the point you fail to accept is UK ICUs have many covid patients in them 80% of whom are unvaccinated. Effectively that means 80% of ICU covid patients come from 15% (there or thereabouts but certainly under 20%) of our population. You are 5 times more likely to require ICU treatment than the equivalent same age/sex/background vaccinated person. That is fact. Not interpretation of data or an opinion. Simple conclusion from ICU occupancy... And in mean time those people who could have avoided their plight are taking beds up of people there by no fault of their own. The unvaccinated in there must take much responsibility for their situation.

My data from Ireland and pre Omicron, would make the ICU statistics even more stark. The non vaxxed 5% of the then adult population, occupied 2/3 of the ICU beds.

 

[Danidl]

Agreed and possibly but without vaccines that would have been case months ago.. Omicron breakout infections are proving how effective vaccines were against Delta.
Question is will higher infection lead to NHS being overwhelmed.

Our Health authorities basically are saying if one member of a household gets Delta ...all will. And that on steroids is Omicron . Fortunately if they are fully vaxxed, they will rarely need medical or hospital care.

 

[Zlatan]

No I'm not, I've from my first vaccine post on March 8th recommended we all get vaccinated ASAP, stressing it three times in that post.

But ICU is not a vaccine issue, it's an antigen issue, the so called vaccines effectively treating Covid after it's been caught.

That should never be confused with the real issue, that the vaccines alone are doing nothing to prevent the spread of Covid and arguably increase the infection rate as I've shown. The vast majority of the unvaccinated who get infected, over 97%, do not enter ICU or die and are no worse than the vaccinated at spreading Covid.

Those 72,000 deaths per 11 months with and without prove it, especially when the government deliberately fiddled the 2010 deaths total to make it that high. In truth there were more deaths with the vaccines in the 2021 11 months than without the vaccines in the 2020 11 months.
.

Sorry Flecc, I, m lost.
If vaccines (or antigens) reduced deaths /kept hospital and ICU occupancy down to acceptable levels. (well levels NHS could cope with) in many respects they have done their job. Saved lives. Saved NHS. They have simply not done their ideal job of preventing infection. (which is surely a secondary desire) Primary objective was, is and always had been to save lives and NHS from collapse. They have achieved that so far. Might become more difficult but none the less they have done so until perhaps this January. And if hospitalisation rates hold as they are doing at moment might continue to do so. I think they will.
As far as I, m concerned calling them vaccines or antigens is irrelevant. If they save lives it makes no difference. If they have kept NHS operative it makes no difference. If they have kept people out of ICU and off intubation it makes no difference. Its an injection to stop you dying and stave off serious illness. That's enough isn't it. At moment it's best we have. I, ll have a perfect vaccine when we have one. An imperfect antigen is better than no antigen.

 

[flecc]

They have simply not done their ideal job of preventing infection. (which is surely a secondary desire) Primary objective was, is and always had been to save lives and NHS from collapse.

No, no, no. How many times?

The primary function of a vaccine is to prevent infection. That has always been the definition and our dishonest govenment cannot just change the meaning of our words to suit their political agenda.

You and many others agreed with me on this on March 8th, but now like many you've changed to the government's distorted meaning.

Treating Covid was never at any time a primary function of the vaccines. It just ended that way when the vaccines failed to prevent catching the disease so only the compensation of preventing suffering was left to brag about.

And I don't understand why you are arguing when I promote having the two jab vaccine as much as anyone.

But I won't support having a repeat of the same every three months ad infinitum.

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the very definition of madness.

Any eventual different result could be very unwelcome. I'm equally very opposed to the jabs for the very young.
.

 

[Zlatan]

No, no, no. How many times?

The primary function of a vaccine is to prevent infection. That has always been the definition and our dishonest govenment cannot just change the meaning of our words to suit their political agenda.

You and many others agreed with me on this on March 8th, but now like many you've changed to the government's distorted meaning.

Treating Covid was never at any time a primary function of the vaccines. It just ended that way when the vaccines failed to prevent catching the disease so only the compensation of preventing suffering was left to brag about.

And I don't understand why you are arguing when I promote having the two jab vaccine as much as anyone.

But I won't support having a repeat of the same every three months ad infinitum.

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the very definition of madness.

Any eventual different result could be very unwelcome. I'm equally very opposed to the jabs for the very young.
.

Flecc, I, m agreeing with you.
Perhaps it isn't a vaccine. I don't care what NHS call it. I, m saying the injection has saved lives, has kept number in hospital within acceptable levels and has kept people off intubation.
Fair enough if you want to wait for a vaccine but I will be taking the injections offered between now and a day when they have a perfect vaccine in a hope they will keep me out of hospital, which so far they have done.
As I said earlier its either an imperfect antigen/injection/vaccine or nothing.

 

[oldgroaner]

A message from God's Tech support line

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473964402504343555