Brexit, for once some facts.

Zlatan

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The National Regulatory Bodies are the Government Departments or the State Boards set up by legislation to oversee activites. They are not trade associations .. And I know ,having served on many over the years.. I know how seriously they take their roles. . In those I have served on, the State funds their activities. Of course they are instruments of Public Policy. ..not political or commercial interests.
Simply amazes me folk insist ONS, NHS and other such bodies are biased, controlled or managed to give out false data but then offer the most spuriously arrived at information you could find but are perfectly willing to accept these findings without question, because they hold a mutual narrative... Already a starting point for bias.
GIjoe isn't researching (actually finding data off Internet) in hope of finding the truth. He is doing so to prove his point. He is working from a biased position to start with, so will dismiss any data that proves his error.
He said it all in his reply to me when I pointed out ONS figures on Vaccine deaths.. "well they would say that wouldn't they".
I, ve had exactly same today with my anti vaxxer friend. He assures me vaccine isn't working and that hospitals around where he used to live in Spain are full of vaccinated people.. Even supplied a "spreadsheet" proving his point.
Asked him where sheet was from.. "his German friend"
I also pointed out that with 80% of population vaccinated and vaccine not 100% effective there were bound to be vaccinated in hospitals... And showed him ONS stats on our ICU occupancy. (80% unvaccinated)
He wouldn't believe those...
It doesn't fit his narrative.
The Fact vaccines work and are not dangerous does not fit GIjoes narrative... Even though its proven. (just examine ONS stats)
Seems many Anti vaxxers are now on a crusade. Don't get it.
Fine, don't have vaccine yourself(even tho you should) but stop pushing the BS that helps you justify a stupid, dangerous, selfish decision.
Witty has just been on my tele asking all unvaccinated to get a vaccine and all those elegible to get a booster... Why can't GIjoe accept his data/stats/opinion.???
 
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oyster

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Simply amazes me folk insist ONS, NHS and other such bodies are biased, controlled or managed to give out false data but then offer the most spuriously arrived at information you could find but are perfectly willing to accept these findings without question, because they hold a mutual narrative... Already a starting point for bias.
GIjoe isn't researching (actually finding data off Internet) in hope of finding the truth. He is doing so to prove his point. He is working from a biased position to start with, so will dismiss any data that proves his error.
He said it all in his reply to me when I pointed out ONS figures on Vaccine deaths.. "well they would say that wouldn't they".
I, ve had exactly same today with my anti vaxxer friend. He assures me vaccine isn't working and that hospitals around where he used to live in Spain are full of vaccinated people.. Even supplied a "spreadsheet" proving his point.
Asked him where sheet was from.. "his German friend"
I also pointed out that with 80% of population vaccinated and vaccine not 100% effective there were bound to be vaccinated in hospitals... And showed him ONS stats on our ICU occupancy. (80% unvaccinated)
He wouldn't believe those...
It doesn't fit his narrative.
The Fact vaccines work and are not dangerous does not fit GIjoes narrative... Even though its proven. (just examine ONS stats)
Seems many Anti vaxxers are now on a crusade. Don't get it.
Fine, don't have vaccine yourself(even tho you should) but stop pushing the BS that helps you justify a stupid, dangerous, selfish decision.
Witty has just been on my tele asking all unvaccinated to get a vaccine and all those elegible to get a booster... Why can't GIjoe accept his data/stats/opinion.???
I spend an inordinate amount of time reading and see vast quantities of research that was incompetently designed, badly analysed, with logical mistakes, etc. But mostly there is no reason to suspect manipulation. More often unwillingness to admit previous mistakes, to look stupid, or to put the work in.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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I spend an inordinate amount of time reading and see vast quantities of research that was incompetently designed, badly analysed, with logical mistakes, etc. But mostly there is no reason to suspect manipulation. More often unwillingness to admit previous mistakes, to look stupid, or to put the work in.
But not made up like most anti vaxxer "research"?
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Flecc.. I came across a few references today, possibly explaining the anomalies in the London infection and vaccine rates. The kernel of your argument is that the vaccine rates for London were lower than elsewhere based on official government statistics. , Yet infection rates were not worse.
In these references , . the vaccine statistics for London were accurate. However the population statistics are skewed. The discrepancy is that vaccination rates are calculated based on GP registration records, which in London are unusually poor. The amount of churning between GPs , changing flats,and moving in and out being higher in London than elsewhere .,means that there are multiple instances of people being on two or more GP lists . But both names will be included in the population to be vaccinated. There is a difference of 1.6 Million between the ONS data and the GP figures ...and the assumption is both are incorrect , and the most probable population is about half way.
Obviously ,I don't know London,
The reference is UK in a changing EU.. ukandeu.ac.uk
Thanks for this reference, but you are wrong in saying the kernel of my argument is that the vaccine rates for London were lower than elsewhere yet infection rates were not worse. Don't you remember that I was making the same argument of natural immunity by prior infection throughout 2020 when there were no vaccines in existence, also showing how very high the London infection rate in support? The lower London vaccine rates I've only latterly given to support the effectiveness of prior infection which is belatedly officially accepted as likely anyway. The kernel of my argument is and always has been that London's very high prior infection is at least as effective as vaccination and likely to be more so. I've posted chief statistician Professor Spiegelhalter's support for that and you have referred to your professor's support too in this link.

I have never claimed London's infection rate is lower, it's often been higher and that is still very true now. The second part of my argument is that London's death rate is lower. These also show the effectiveness of prior infection reducing the ill effects of Covid if caught. How you can misread these is frankly staggering when I've spelled them out so clearly.

I was already aware of the GP list discrepancies since the same claim has been made in several publications, but the argument is false as I'll show later.

But I'll first deal with it on the basis that it's true to show it makes no difference.

The published proportion of Londoners with no vaccine jab at all is 29% of the official 9.4 million population. Assuming that population is reduced by your mid point of 800,000, it leaves 26.5% with no vaccine. The UK has just 10.3% with no vaccine, so you see the reduction makes no material difference. London's vaccine take-up failure rate remains very different from the UK one, even if I took that whole erroneous 1.6 millions away.

To emphasise this, London's 68.1% with one jab would increase to 74.4% against the UK 89.7%, and the 61.8% with both jabs would increase to 67.6% against the UK 82%, both far lower in London, yet with lower death rates.

However, the claim of multiple GP registrations omits the opposing truth, that many entering London do not immediately register with a GP or even at all before moving or leaving. Most coming into London for employment are fit healthy young adults who have no need for any medical attention and I typified that when I returned to London in my late twenties. Other than my army entry medical, the last time I'd seen a doctor was at 10 years old, so being fully fit It didn't occur to register. It was only a grumbling appendix years later that finally triggered a contact with a local doctor.

If that hadn't happen it could have been decades later before I saw a GP since going up to 15 years without any doctors appointment was the norm for most of my life. Since London's vaccinations and booster programs were mostly conducted in large walk in centres and not in GP surgeries, a GP registration wasn't necessary. In this connection I trust you will remember my posts saying how I had to belatedly chase first and second jabs because I was not contacted at all, this after 54 years of continuous London residency and decades of 'flu jabs

And anyway, the claim on the basis of GP records that London's true population is 8.6 millions and not the official 9.4 millions is ridiculous when the GLC's research indicates the true population is 10.1 millions.

So the reason for London's better Covid performance against all the odds and predictions remains the benefit of the very early extremely high infection rate and the immunity benefits against infection, sickness and later deaths that resulted.
.
 
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guerney

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???
It'll just be a cold in a few years:

 
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guerney

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As usua (and sensibly) the WHO says there's not enough data, large scale peer reviewed studies (elsewhere in news):

 

Jesus H Christ

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Dec 31, 2020
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Thanks for this reference, but you are wrong in saying the kernel of my argument is that the vaccine rates for London were lower than elsewhere yet infection rates were not worse. Don't you remember that I was making the same argument of natural immunity by prior infection throughout 2020 when there were no vaccines in existence, also showing how very high the London infection rate in support? The lower London vaccine rates I've only latterly given to support the effectiveness of prior infection which is belatedly officially accepted as likely anyway. The kernel of my argument is and always has been that London's very high prior infection is at least as effective as vaccination and likely to be more so. I've posted chief statistician Professor Spiegelhalter's support for that and you have referred to your professor's support too in this link.

I have never claimed London's infection rate is lower, it's often been higher and that is still very true now. The second part of my argument is that London's death rate is lower. These also show the effectiveness of prior infection reducing the ill effects of Covid if caught. How you can misread these is frankly staggering when I've spelled them out so clearly.

I was already aware of the GP list discrepancies since the same claim has been made in several publications, but the argument is false as I'll show later.

But I'll first deal with it on the basis that it's true to show it makes no difference.

The published proportion of Londoners with no vaccine jab at all is 29% of the official 9.4 million population. Assuming that population is reduced by your mid point of 800,000, it leaves 26.5% with no vaccine. The UK has just 10.3% with no vaccine, so you see the reduction makes no material difference. London's vaccine take-up failure rate remains very far below the UK one, even if I took that whole erroneous 1.6 millions away.

To emphasise this, London's 68.1% with one jab would increase to 74.4% against the UK 89.7%, and the 61.8% with both jabs would increase to 67.6% against the UK 82%, both far lower in London, yet with lower death rates.

However, the claim of multiple GP registrations omits the opposing truth, that many entering London do not immediately register with a GP or even at all before moving or leaving. Most coming into London for employment are fit healthy young adults who have no need for any medical attention and I typified that when I returned to London in my late twenties. Other than my army entry medical, the last time I'd seen a doctor was at 10 years old, so being fully fit It didn't occur to register. It was only a grumbling appendix years later that finally triggered a contact with a local doctor.

If that hadn't happen it could have been decades later before I saw a GP since going up to 15 years without any doctors appointment was the norm for most of my life. Since London's vaccinations and booster programs were mostly conducted in large walk in centres and not in GP surgeries, a GP registration wasn't necessary. In this connection I trust you will remember my posts saying how I had to belatedly chase first and second jabs because I was not contacted at all, this after 54 years of continuous London residency and decades of 'flu jabs

And anyway, the claim on the basis of GP records that London's true population is 8.6 millions and not the official 9.4 millions is ridiculous when the GLC's research indicates the true population is 10.1 millions.

So the reason for London's better Covid performance against all the odds and predictions remains the benefit of the very early extremely high infection rate and the immunity benefits against infection, sickness and later deaths that resulted.
.
I think there is some truth in this. Immunity comes from either prior infection or from vaccination. Londoners don’t seem to like white man medicine, so they probably have a higher rate of immunity derived from previous infection than other parts of the country.

It will be interesting to see which type of immunity is the most durable / effective over the longer term. They are already priming us for a fourth dose of white man medicine in about 16 weeks time. For the first time, I’m starting to feel slightly uneasy about another dose of vaccine. I’ll have it, if offered, but won’t be quite as eager this time. A 5th dose? Hmmmm.
 

guerney

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oyster

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There will be very mixed feelings about this.

For many years, medicine (in general) has been pushing things like Graded Exercise Therapy (GET), anti-depressants and psychological for Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) - and Fibromyalgia (FM).

Patients have been claiming that it is something that really is organic and the current approaches can worsen the symptoms and the psychological state of the sufferer. Most (or all) the psycho side being a consequence of suffering the disorder/disease. Many patients have found that ME/CFS and/or FM came with hypothyroidism and some are absolutely convinced that part is due to untreated, or inadequately treated, hypothyroidism.

Along comes Covid, and specifically Long Covid, with remarkably similar symptoms to ME/CFS and, sometimes, FM. As well as (quite often) a profound impact on thyroid hormones. And we see the word mitochondria used - which has been a mantra of ME/CFS and FM sufferers for years. Their difficulty being in seeing how to treat - and persuade medics of their views. Though massive doses of ascorbic acid (vitamin C - which is an antioxidant) have often been suggested.

If this becomes the accepted view of Covid, we can hope for Covid/Long Covid and ME/CFS/FM experiences to crossover in terms of (hopefuly only the best) treatments and understanding.

But the issue of a cytokine storm might well be an issue we need to look at differently.
 
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guerney

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There will be very mixed feelings about this.

For many years, medicine (in general) has been pushing things like Graded Exercise Therapy (GET), anti-depressants and psychological for Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) - and Fibromyalgia (FM).

Patients have been claiming that it is something that really is organic and the current approaches can worsen the symptoms and the psychological state of the sufferer. Most (or all) the psycho side being a consequence of suffering the disorder/disease. Many patients have found that ME/CFS and/or FM came with hypothyroidism and some are absolutely convinced that part is due to untreated, or inadequately treated, hypothyroidism.

Along comes Covid, and specifically Long Covid, with remarkably similar symptoms to ME/CFS and, sometimes, FM. As well as (quite often) a profound impact on thyroid hormones. And we see the word mitochondria used - which has been a mantra of ME/CFS and FM sufferers for years. Their difficulty being in seeing how to treat - and persuade medics of their views. Though massive doses of ascorbic acid (vitamin C - which is an antioxidant) have often been suggested.

If this becomes the accepted view of Covid, we can hope for Covid/Long Covid and ME/CFS/FM experiences to crossover in terms of (hopefuly only the best) treatments and understanding.

But the issue of a cytokine storm might well be an issue we need to look at differently.
I'm getting boosted tomorrow. I've made a batch of Kefir, for the possibility of reducing the cytokline storm, should I get infected while doing so, and because it tastes nice:


...but it might not taste as nice as usual, because the 24 hour petrol staion I bought the milk from, only appears to have kept it refrigerated in the display area, and not while in storage. If it tastes off, I'll bake sourdough with this batch. I got 24 UHT cartons delivered yesterday from Iceland (the shop), which always tastes vaguely like melted ice cream when Kefiratigationatifigated. The next batch will be perfect. :p

It's heartening that ME will now be much more researched.

We excrete excess Vitamin C, doesn't make any sense to take very high doses?
 
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Zlatan

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I think there is some truth in this. Immunity comes from either prior infection or from vaccination. Londoners don’t seem to like white man medicine, so they probably have a higher rate of immunity derived from previous infection than other parts of the country.

It will be interesting to see which type of immunity is the most durable / effective over the longer term. They are already priming us for a fourth dose of white man medicine in about 16 weeks time. For the first time, I’m starting to feel slightly uneasy about another dose of vaccine. I’ll have it, if offered, but won’t be quite as eager this time. A 5th dose? Hmmmm.
I, m on 6 tablets per day so what's a jab every 3 months?? Rather have a small needle in my arm daily than a tube down my throat permanently?? (well for a few weeks, until expiry date)

???
The bit Boris had put in, probably wrote 2 weeks ago?
Screenshot_20211223_084935.jpg

Mutant epicentre London... Only in Daily Mail.
 
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oyster

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We excrete excess Vitamin C, doesn't make any sense to take very high doses?
The suggestion by some is that we should take it "to bowel tolerance" - as much as we can ingest without actually ending up unable to move from the WC. Then drop very slightly.

I think that is crazy.

And vitamin C is not the only antioxidant.
 
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Woosh

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the article on the sciencedirect website is interesting but most of the ground work was done last year, 2020, so it's not new*. When you look at the practical therapy side, telling people that the pathway to cytokine storm may be in the way the virus affects mitochondrial DNA may just push some to take excessive amount vitamin C while hoping that may help their mitochondria. It's a lot of maybes.
We excrete excess Vitamin C, doesn't make any sense to take very high doses?
I am of the opinion that people should not self medicate, ever. Not even vitamin C.

*Complete blood picture of COVID-19 patients usually shows lymphopenia with or without total leukopenia.
 
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Zlatan

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I am of the opinion that people should not self medicate, ever. Not even vitamin C.
Too true. Unfortunately with advent of social media, Google and people assuming (wrongly) they can conduct research it has become far more prevalent.
Every time I tell somebody about my AF I get a stream of advice... All from folk who know absolutely nothing about the heart and cardiac system. Was same prior to eye surgery. Google has promoted thousands of us to experts on fecking everything.
Heart consultant, Interestingly just says eat and exercise well, don't smoke,drink alcohol or vape. Oh, and he added get vaccinated if you are not.
 
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Woosh

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I, m on 6 tablets per day so what's a jab every 3 months?? Rather have a small needle in my arm daily than a tube down my throat permanently?? (well for a few weeks, until expiry date)
There is a hassle factor but there is also a genuine health concern associated with booster jabs.
Every time you get a booster jab, your immune system is stimulated.
One more cycle may be OK for most people but repeated boosters? No.
For some, there is a risk to cause blood clots, and for most, there is an issue of overstimulating the immune system.
 

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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There is a hassle factor but there is also a genuine health concern associated with booster jabs.
Every time you get a booster jab, your immune system is stimulated.
One more cycle may be OK for most people but repeated boosters? No.
For some, there is a risk to cause blood clots, and for most, there is an issue of overstimulating the immune system.
Steady Woosh
You'll get soundwave all excited
"there is an issue of overstimulating the immune system. "
It's likely the only thing he hasn't tried.
.
.
YET o_O
 

oyster

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I am of the opinion that people should not self medicate, ever. Not even vitamin C.
I so wish I agreed.

People should never have to self medicate.

And where is the border between self-medication and non-self-medication?

The medical establishment in the UK, insofar they think about the issue, frequently advise we all take vitamin D. They refuse tests on the grounds we are all low in vitamin D. And expect us to buy our own.

Yet, excess vitamin D can cause some significant issues.

Is taking vitamin D, as promoted by the medical establishment, self-medication? Without tests, without individual advice, without even distinguishing D2 from D3.
 

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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There is a hassle factor but there is also a genuine health concern associated with booster jabs.
Every time you get a booster jab, your immune system is stimulated.
One more cycle may be OK for most people but repeated boosters? No.
For some, there is a risk to cause blood clots, and for most, there is an issue of overstimulating the immune system.
That surely depends on the alternative.
Taking amphetamines is terribly bad for you but facing prospects of fighting Mike Tyson think I, d have some.
Desperate times... Desperate measures.
Covid vaccines aren't going to be perfect for a while yet so it's path of least risk... Take the booster??? Or stay locked up in your house on your own???
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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I so wish I agreed.

People should never have to self medicate.

And where is the border between self-medication and non-self-medication?

The medical establishment in the UK, insofar they think about the issue, frequently advise we all take vitamin D. They refuse tests on the grounds we are all low in vitamin D. And expect us to buy our own.

Yet, excess vitamin D can cause some significant issues.

Is taking vitamin D, as promoted by the medical establishment, self-medication? Without tests, without individual advice, without even distinguishing D2 from D3.
But how many people examine things to your degree but then live "unhealthy" lifestyles, smoking, drinking, vaping over eating, not exercising.
It's modern way.. Take a supplement, have a vitamin, take magnesium, potassium, calcium, vitamin C/D, B12... List is endless.
If folk want to be healthy and fit there are no quick fixes. It's very simple. Eat a balanced diet, don't smoke/drink and exercise regularly. I suspect many go down route of self medication to avoid the actual healthy lifestyle choices.
 

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