Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

It isn't meant as a lie. The attachment was from official labour site, which clearly states... "where applicable labour Party members must be in a Union".

Rubbish, see this link

How do you think Momentum magically gained over half a million Labour Party members. They sure weren't a sudden gain of half a million new union members. Anyway, why is wanting members of a trade union political party to be trade unionist wrong? No-one has to vote for them.

Either way, it makes no odds. Labour are controlled by McCluskey. That is wrong.

I repeat. Why is wanting members of a trade union political party to be trade unionists wrong? No-one has to vote for them.

You agree Labour are in complete disarray yet argue nothing should be changed to cure problems. Find that quite odd.

I have never said anything of the sort. I haven't said it shouldn't change, I've pointed out to you why it cannot change since it is out of their control. They are a trade union party dependent on the trade unions who won't let them change.

There's actually nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong about McCluskey's influence. It's a free world for any form of political party, including an alternative labour party. Trouble is that there's no demand for one and not even enough support for the present one.
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[Zlatan]

That is what small "c" conservative means !!!

i.e. Very slightly right wing, a sort of caring right wing, so long as it's not too expensive.

The UK is certainly not predominantly centrist, if it was the Liberals would be in power since there could hardly be a more centrist party.
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No, it does not. Conservative with a small C denotes anyone who holds Conservative views without voting Conservative.
Many past Labour voters were definetly Conservative with a small C. In fact whole swathes of our area, many who simply voted Labour by history, tradition or dogma did so but actually held conservative views. Pubs were full of people grumbling about unions, etc and shouting conservatism but they, d be voting Labour.

 

[Danidl]

So why not open Labour Party to none Union members??
Entire electorate could join Tory party... Only 23% of workers are eligible to join Labour... Unless they go against their own wishes... Join a union and then join party.? That is purely to the benefit of Unions... Not the party.
To be in Labour Party, if a worker, you must be a Union member?, consequently to have a say on direction of party you must also be a Unionist.. That's antiquated, unfair and to detriment of party.
Time that was challenged in court.
Campbell just talking sense on Vine...

I don't want to wade in on this, but that statement you gave in enlarged print was as most aspirational and encouragement , not a mandate. Now because I was in a public service position,.. essentially a monopoly , it makes total sense to be a member of a trade union

 

[flecc]

No, it does not. Conservative with a small C denotes anyone who holds Conservative views without voting Conservative.

Wrong.

I don't think I've ever known someone with so many weird and untrue views. Here's some corrections:

Most small "c" conservatives already vote Conservative, that's why they are in power and have been for so long.

Even many Conservative MPs are small "c", we call them the moderates.

As I've shown with a link, anyone can join the Labour Party without being a trade union member.

Huge numbers of us can even join at preferential rates like trade unionists do, but without being in a union.

There is nothing wrong with the unions having influence on a political party formed out of a trade union movement expressly to represent their members. That influence is fundamental to the party.

That is why Labour cannot change away from the unions and why to get change former MPs once left the party to form another one, the SDP.

And why Blair changed the name to New Labour in his failed and futile attempt to steal an existing party, only to ultimately find it wasn't possible and why New Labour no longer exists.
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[Zlatan]

Wrong.

I don't think I've ever known someone with so many weird and untrue views. Here's some corrections:

Most small "c" conservatives already vote Conservative, that's why they are in power and have been for so long.

Even many Conservative MPs are small "c", we call them the moderates.

As I've shown with a link, anyone can join the Labour Party without being a trade union member.

Huge numbers of us can even join at preferential rates like trade unionists do, but without being in a union.

There is nothing wrong with the unions having influence on a political party formed out of a trade union movement expressly to represent their members. That influence is fundamental to the party.

That is why Labour cannot change away from the unions and why to get change former MPs once left the party to form another one, the SDP.

And why Blair changed the name to New Labour in his failed and futile attempt to steal an existing party, only to ultimately find it wasn't possible and why New Labour no longer exists.
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Nope, you are wrong. Look it up.


By your silly definition Conservative MPs could be small C, by definition they are Conservative. Stop being silly Flecc. It's not like you.

 

[flecc]

Nope, you are wrong. Look it up.
View attachment 42416

No I'm not wrong, you said:

Conservative with a small C denotes anyone who holds Conservative views without voting Conservative.

The definition is without NECESSARILY voting Conservative, a very big difference indeed and your "conservative views" should not have a capital C.

Your post was wrong since the majority of Conservative voters are small "c".

But you were right in that the majority of Labour voters are also small "c".

And almost all Lib-Dem voters are small "c".

Confirming as I've said, that England is almost entirely a small "c" country and long has been. It's why the Labour party hasn't a chance in England any more.
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[Zlatan]

I don't want to wade in on this, but that statement you gave in enlarged print was as most aspirational and encouragement , not a mandate. Now because I was in a public service position,.. essentially a monopoly , it makes total sense to be a member of a trade union

As usual irrelevant to argument. The level of union take up was is nothing to do with it. The problem is the hold Unions have over Labour Party, essentially to such a degree McCluskey can make or break (ie Choose) Party leader. Flecc with his Marxist leanings sees that as OK. I don't.
McCluskey represents his Union members not the country, his choices are bound to be beneficial towards those members and not necessarily the electorate at large. As was explained in the Dominic Lawson article.
If this influence McCluskey has over Labour Party is not changed, we will never see Labour in power. And, even if it were possible it is not democratic that a totally unelected person (by the electorate as a whole) can have such influence.

 

[Zlatan]

No I'm not wrong, you said:



The definition is without NECESSARILY voting Conservative, a very big difference indeed and your "conservative views" should not have a capital C.

Your post was wrong since the majority of Conservative voters are small "c".

But you were right in that the majority of Labour voters are also small "c".

And almost all Lib-Dem voters are small "c".

Confirming as I've said, that England is almost entirely a small "c" country and long has been. It's why the Labour party hasn't a chance in England any more.

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Agreed re Conservative needing a small C in the example. My phone gave it to it.
You argued small C Conservatives were right leaning moderates. That could be case but might not. They could be radical right wingers and still vote Labour... (It often happened around us)
Conservative voters are by definition large C Conservatives. You can't be a small C Conservative voter. It's impossible by definition. You vote Conservative. You are a Conservative. (until you don't vote for them)
Unless you are talking about conserving jam or something, but we were talking politically.
Large C Conservatives vote Conservative. Small C hold Conservative opinions but vote for someone else. Read the Oxford definition.
Can't believe we are arguing over large and small letters.

 

[flecc]

Agreed re Conservative needing a small C in the example. My phone gave it to it.
You argued small C Conservatives were right leaning moderates. That could be case but might not. They could be radical right wingers and still vote Labour... (It often happened around us)
Conservative voters are by definition large C Conservatives. You can't be a small C Conservative voter. It's impossible by definition. You vote Conservative. You are a Conservative. (until you don't vote for them)
Unless you are talking about conserving jam or something, but we were ralking politically.

Oh dear, more weirdness. Being small "c" conservative isn't necessarily about a person's politicality, hence that definition saying "not necessarily" voting conservative.

Conservative voters are NOT by definition large C conservatives. By arguing that you are arguing against the very definition you quoted which used "not necessarily" to show they can equally be small "c".

Their vote is large "C" and their political views can be, but their views in general are most often small "c". If that were not true the Tories would rarely if ever get into power.
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[Zlatan]

Oh dear, more weirdness. Being small "c" conservative isn't necessarily about a person's politicality, hence that definition saying "not necessarily" voting conservative.

Conservative voters are NOT by definition large C conservatives. By arguing that you are arguing against the very definition you quoted which used "not necessarily" to show they can equally be small "c".

Their vote is large "C" and their political views can be, but their views in general are most often small "c". If that were not true the Tories would rarely if ever get into power.
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Utter rubbish.
If a person votes Conservative, irrespective of their views they are deemed Conservative. (and scum by some)
If they hold Conservative views but vote for any other party they are said to hold small C conservative views.! (and are small C conservatives)
Fact. Read the definition by Oxford Press. Or are they wrong too.
What's your definition of a Conservative flecc? Pray tell us.

Its not complicated.


If they identify with(vote for) Conservative party they are Conservatives.

And you are saying I have odd opinions.

 

[oldgroaner]

Utter rubbish.
If a person votes Conservative, irrespective of their views they are deemed Conservative. (and scum by some)
If they hold Conservative views but vote for any other party they are said to hold small C conservative views.! (and are small C conservatives)
Fact. Read the definition by Oxford Press. Or are they wrong too.
What's your definition of a Conservative flecc? Pray tell us.

Its not complicated.
View attachment 42418

If they identify with(vote for) Conservative party they are Conservatives.

Not Scum , daft.

 

[Zlatan]

Utter rubbish.
If a person votes Conservative, irrespective of their views they are deemed Conservative. (and scum by some)
If they hold Conservative views but vote for any other party they are said to hold small C conservative views.! (and are small C conservatives)
Fact. Read the definition by Oxford Press. Or are they wrong too.
What's your definition of a Conservative flecc? Pray tell us.

Its not complicated.
View attachment 42418

If they identify with(vote for) Conservative party they are Conservatives.

And you are saying I have odd opinions.

So Oxford Press and Wiki are wrong. Nice one flecc.

 

[flecc]

Utter rubbish.
If a person votes Conservative, irrespective of their views they are deemed Conservative. (and scum by some)
If they hold Conservative views but vote for any other party they are said to hold small C conservative views.! (and are small C conservatives)
Fact. Read the definition by Oxford Press. Or are they wrong too.
What's your definition of a Conservative flecc? Pray tell us.

Its not complicated.
View attachment 42418

Try to understand what the OED mean Zlatan, conservatism isn't an expression of politicality.

Definition:

A conservative (small c) is someone who likes to conserve, keep things as as they are. The word conservative is an antonym of radical.

To illustrate using ourselves, you have conservative views on engine and exhaust noise, often liking what we have. I have radical views on that, preferring near silence at all times from vehicles.

Neither of those are political views.
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[Zlatan]

Not Scum , daft.

Think it's out of options. Sort of realising why today.

 

[flecc]

So Oxford Press and Wiki are wrong. Nice one flecc.

No they are not wrong, you are simply not reading and understanding correctly, as usual. See my previous post.
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[Zlatan]

Try to understand what the OED mean Zlatan, conservatism isn't an expression of politicality.

Definition:

A conservative (small c) is someone who likes to conserve, keep things as as they are. The word conservative is an antonym of radical.

To illustrate using ourselves, you have conservative views on engine and exhaust noise, often liking what we have. I have radical views on that, preferring near silence at all times from vehicles.

Neither of those are political views.
.

Small C conservatism is a political phrase tho Flecc, we aren't talking about conserving the planet or jam.
In politics small C conservatism is holding same views as a Conservative would but voting for another party.
Phrase was coined to describe the thousands of voters in the 1980s who actually supported Thatcherism/Conservatism of a kind but refused to vote that way in support of miners etc. Folk all over country vote according to their history, dogma and past. Some held forthright socialist views around here but many actually agreed (silently) with Conservatives but voted Labour. They are small C Conservatives.

 

[flecc]

Flecc with his Marxist leanings sees that as OK.

More lies. Perhaps you'd care to explain how I've voted Conservative so many times?
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[Zlatan]

No they are not wrong, you are simply not reading and understanding correctly, as usual. See my previous post.
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I, m understanding it perfectly thanks Flecc. In this case you are wrong.
By your definition please describe a Conservative.

 

[Zlatan]

More lies. Perhaps you'd care to explain how I've voted Conservative so many times?
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Your support for McCluskey suggests to me Marxists leanings. Unionism, collective block voting. That is beyond socialism irrespective of past voting.

 

[flecc]

In politics small C conservatism is holding same views as a Conservative would but voting for another party.

No, that contradicts the definition you posted to me, which stated "not necessarily".

You've just made that necessarily !!!!!

How many times before it penetrates?
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