Brexit, for once some facts.

[Suzan]

The Israel population is 11M. ..doses which might have gone into EU arms, had the EU been as insular in mindset , there would be no Israeli vaccinated. And only half as many UK vaccinations and twice as many EU vaccinated ..THAT is the "something wrong". 450 is bigger than 66 is bigger than 11

Yep agreed, but all you have explained is the mechanics of failure.. EU hasn't planned production quick enough for entire population.
During the war Russia managed to move and reestablish its entire armaments production thousands of miles east. They did it in months. America went from producing hundreds of Sherman tanks to many thousands a week literally in weeks.
Yet, knowing full well Europe would require hundreds of millions of doses they have sucussfully prepared for 50% at most of that... Yet, put blame at somebody else's door. Production could have and should have been larger by a factor of 10 by now. It isn't? Why not? Bet if they needed tanks quick they would have.

 

[flecc]

How long before it crosses the Channel? I don't know but I hope we'll have the third jab by then.

Or even the second jab. It's 9 weeks since the first for me now and 11 weeks for two same age friends here, and the health centre is still only part way though the first jab program.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

It

It's nothing to do with countries suspending or stopping its use. That is absolutely fine, although it's now apparent rather a political expediency than medical,its the suspending, stopping and general attacking of AZ vaccine combined with trying to get our supplies of the same. And trying to ban export of a drug they actually don't want.
By any sane, objective assessment EU, or its constituent countries if you are in awe of EU and can't accept it has faults, has performed terribly in vaccine roll out.
I suspect it will damage EU leaders, especially Von Leyen, and heads of the powerful member countries.
Makron and Merkel have been badly affected by the group's and their own performances recently. Could see it costing Makron and Merkel their positions.

Mortality rates are still rising in the UK – and everyone is ignoring how many more people are dying

There were an extra 623,000 deaths in the UK in the year to mid-2018 – an increase of 3%.

theconversation.com

Interesting that this report was written pre covid and death rates higher in each age group than equivalent death rates in AZ vaccinated groups.
Noticed yesterday that Germany quoted 36 clotting incidents with 9 deaths from 2.72 million jabs.
The obvious questions that JCVI must be answering differently to German counterpart is
A) Are those 9 deaths over and above deaths from similar cohorts of non vaccinated.. (ie from previous years data)
B) Do those 9 deaths have detrimental effect on death rate or are they part of it?
C) Are the deaths linked to vaccine? If so what is the risk?
D) Is that risk greater or lesser than death risk from Covid.
I suspect we all know the answers to these questions.
9 deaths from 2.7 million vaccinated with no proven link is a very small risk even if link exists.
So, why have Germans suspended AZ for under 60s? They are attempting to prove to be shown as "careful". They are hoping the low confidence will increase when vaccine is restarted. I suspect the reverse will happen.
Putting it in perspective.
Assume only a 0.1% death rate for covid. (it's about that for a healthy 40 Yr old)
Assume only a 95% efficiency for AZ vaccine saving life. (Its actually higher).
The vaccine potentially saves 2500 lives from vaccinating 2.7 million.
It potentially cost 9 lives.
The maths simply does not add up to suspend or hold up vaccine.

You do realise that this is exactly what the media want you to think, don't you?

I, m afraid I don't agree with that at all.
Firstly, you don't even know it is 9 deaths. There are deaths in all groups of 2.7 million people from blood clots.

Thank you.
I don't really agree. I suspect we do know the answers to those questions already.
9 deaths out 2.72 million people at large from clotting is not unusual at all.
Its an area where if we look for correlation we can find one. We are talking one in 302,000 people, and that assumes there even is a link.
I suspect we have already seen many politicians assuming more knowledge than epidemiologists. That seems very much case with President Macron.
There has been a narrative against AZ and a seemingly strange stance from many in EU.
We will see in years to come who was right. At the moment I, m fairly convinced UK is and my friends/family in France see it that way.
I have many friends over 70 yet to have a single dose. That at moment is inexcusable.
My parents got their first last week. My husband 's about 10 weeks ago. How many French deaths does that correlate to?
We are all adults, entire Europe should have had figures available and allowed to make their own choice. People in UK who agree with you can refuse the vaccine... People in France can't chose to have one.
And, by the way Woosh. Seem to remember you answering somebody about EU death rate. Italy is now within 2% of UK figure, UK sits 9th in Europe,suspect Italy and UK will be trading places soon.

It isn't just 9 deaths, here are the figures for both vaccines

Pfizer 108,649 side effect reports dead 259
AZ 294,820 side effect reports dead 326

Here are the Government figures
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/972844/Coronavirus_vaccine_-_summary_of_Yellow_Card_reporting_14.03.21.pdf

Yep agreed, but all you have explained is the mechanics of failure.. EU hasn't planned production quick enough for entire population.
During the war Russia managed to move and reestablish its entire armaments production thousands of miles east. They did it in months. America went from producing hundreds of Sherman tanks to many thousands a week literally in weeks.
Yet, knowing full well Europe would require hundreds of millions of doses they have sucussfully prepared for 50% at most of that... Yet, put blame at somebody else's door. Production could have and should have been larger by a factor of 10 by now. It isn't? Why not? Bet if they needed tanks quick they would have.

Sorry but that isn't true the EU have ordered

EU orders another 350 million COVID-19 vaccine doses from Pfizer & Moderna

The EU has ordered an additional 200 million doses from Pfizer and 150 million doses from Moderna.

www.biopharma-reporter.com

The EU has ordered 500 million from pfizer alone

" Production could have and should have been larger by a factor of 10 by now"
If you own the companies making them, yes that is what happened these companies are privately owned
The EU has invested 330 million Euros in them
And it's no good ordering from AZ as we don't export any to the EU
Nor 100 drugs related to the treatment of Covid sufferers currently under an Export ban.
And of course we have to ask why this government didn't invest in British Companies as was promised in the Brexit con.
We have a Japanese company Fujifilm making the vaccine
AstraZeneca dramatically cut its second-quarter delivery target for Europe—to 70 million doses from 180 million doses.

 

[Danidl]

Yep agreed, but all you have explained is the mechanics of failure.. EU hasn't planned production quick enough for entire population.
During the war Russia managed to move and reestablish its entire armaments production thousands of miles east. They did it in months. America went from producing hundreds of Sherman tanks to many thousands a week literally in weeks.
Yet, knowing full well Europe would require hundreds of millions of doses they have sucussfully prepared for 50% at most of that... Yet, put blame at somebody else's door. Production could have and should have been larger by a factor of 10 by now. It isn't? Why not? Bet if they needed tanks quick they would have.

No... Its not the mechanics of failure ..its reality. Either you have an idea what is involved in vaccine manufacture or you don't. Every part of the supply chain from boron for the glass vials to stainless steel ,to the reagent grade lipids to the development of the lipid templates built up atom by atom has to be developed and extended . That the world was able to get this up and running within a year is outstanding. The huge problem is that the Oxford vaccine has not scaled as effectively as it was earlier assumed.
And as I continue to state and you continue to ignore, the UK "success" is built on Pfizer ,and the Pfizer is an EU design and manufactured in the EU. Had the EU done a UK and hoarded the vaccine , neither Israel nor the UK would have anything to crow about.

 

[oldgroaner]

With the revelation that this country isn't going to get a Covid inquiry,
Matt Green has a suggestion

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377242328709136387

 

[oldgroaner]

BREAKING: 20 shellfish firms plan to SUE the UK govt for making false & negligent claims about Brexit. If Ministers don't sort out shellfish market access with the EU by Sept, they will claim 'substantial damages'.

 

[Woosh]

I, m afraid I don't agree with that at all.
Firstly, you don't even know it is 9 deaths. There are deaths in all groups of 2.7 million people from blood clots.

that's not a good reply at all.
German women under 60 will get their jabs when their turn arrives, they will not get the AZ but another one. What's wrong with that?
Your reply reads like you are willing to ignore a potential lethal risk and you suggest that German government does not understand the science.

 

[Suzan]

It

You do realise that this is exactly what the media want you to think, don't you?

It isn't just 9 deaths, here are the figures for both vaccines

Pfizer 108,649 side effect reports dead 259
AZ 294,820 side effect reports dead 326

Here are the Government figures
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/972844/Coronavirus_vaccine_-_summary_of_Yellow_Card_reporting_14.03.21.pdf

Sorry but that isn't true the EU have ordered

EU orders another 350 million COVID-19 vaccine doses from Pfizer & Moderna

The EU has ordered an additional 200 million doses from Pfizer and 150 million doses from Moderna.

www.biopharma-reporter.com

The EU has ordered 500 million from pfizer alone

" Production could have and should have been larger by a factor of 10 by now"
If you own the companies making them, yes that is what happened these companies are privately owned
The EU has invested 330 million Euros in them
And it's no good ordering from AZ as we don't export any to the EU
Nor 100 drugs related to the treatment of Covid sufferers currently under an Export ban.
And of course we have to ask why this government didn't invest in British Companies as was promised in the Brexit con.
We have a Japanese company Fujifilm making the vaccine
AstraZeneca dramatically cut its second-quarter delivery target for Europe—to 70 million doses from 180 million doses.

All you say could perfectly well be true. To be fair we don't actually know.
What we do know is people in UK in almost all instances for those over 55 or so have had chance of a vaccine. If somebody really believes all the figures you chose to believe they are perfectly free to refuse vaccine. If I believed AZ vaccine to be risky in any way shape or form I, d be under no obligation to have the jab. On the other hand the vast majority of Europe (actually the world) are as yet, and won't be for a while, in a position to have that choice. Their governments are not simply giving evidence so people can make up their own minds, they are refusing the jab and taking that choice away. That is wrong.
Let me ask you this OG.
If you really thought vaccine was dangerous from the figures you quoted, and by your implication our media is lying to us ("they want you to believe that") would you have the jab?
I believe you had your second just the other day so the obvious question is why? Why have it if you think it dangerous?
And, having had it, you endorse that same choice being taken away from many Europeans. (Well people all over)
That seems rather a strange stance.
You believe vaccine to be dangerous, accept the jab twice but agree with stopping roll out elsewhere???
How does that work?
Its safe for you but not Johnny Foreigner perhaps?
You aren't having the courage of your convictions, or perhaps you had jab for altruistic reasons? For your community? For your family? Which is fine but why endorse that same removal of choice for others?
We are all adults capable of making our own choices. If you chose against vaccine, that's fine. If I chose to have it, also fine. But third parties making that decision is not on.
French side of my family are in somewhat of a mess over situation. More than one is up in arms at not been in a position to have been offered the jab but are planning on refusing it anyway. They are quite stubborn.
And they are blaming EU and Macron.
Woosh
You must have French relatives, how do they feel? What do they say when you tell them you, ve had jab?
You won't accept it but we are in a much better place now than France and Italy are and probably even Germany.
Rightly or wrongly there is a definite air of optimism in UK at moment. (probably not on here) That is not the case in France, far from it,I can assure you.

 

[Woosh]

when my GP's practice called me, I asked 'can I choose Pfizer?' - their answer is no.
so it seems to be a lottery here.

 

[Suzan]

when my GP's practice called me, I asked 'can I choose Pfizer?' - their answer is no.
so it seems to be a lottery here.

But Woosh, your worry is the report of blood clot deaths.
Every year, year in year out roughly 25,000 people die of PE without the vaccine.
Thrombosis, PE, DVT is one of largest preventable death causes in UK. I, d guess that is pretty much case in Germany. 9 deaths from Cerebral Embolism as far as I can ascertain would be normal in any 2.7 million people.???
People die of blood clots all the time??
By the way, if you see AZ as the bullet in a game of Russian Roulette, don't pick up the gun. Just refuse it. Problem solved. It's a lottery rest of world would love to have a ticket for.
But you'd rather opt for that lottery but justify not letting others buy a ticket. Again a very odd stance.
By all means come to conclusion AZ is unsafe, folk believe all sorts of weird and wonderful things, but your views shouldn't stop others having access to a vaccine, especially when you opted into the lottery.
If its unsafe. Don't have it. Fine.
But don't have it, and then endorse it being stopped for others. Let them, like you, make up their own mind.
The roll out should never have been halted anywhere. People should have been informed of data, had it explained and allowed to decide for themselves. Its called being an adult, living in a free world and paying some respect to democracy and human rights.
The whole of Europe has the cash, facilities, technical ability and know how to have made billions of doses by now. The EU, or countries within it chose not to chase that goal 12 months ago. It could have been done.
We, ve gone from producing zero covid vaccine to I, d guess 5 million per week in 12 months. If that possible why wasn't 30 million per week. Because the will to do so wasn't there. We humans achieve want we want to achieve.

 

[oyster]

Oops...

Shipments of J&J COVID-19 vaccines halted as FDA probes error that ruined 15M doses
https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/pharmacy/shipments-of-j-j-covid-19-vaccines-halted-as-fda-probes-error-that-ruined-15m-doses.html

 

[Danidl]

But Woosh, your worry is the report of blood clot deaths.
Every year, year in year out roughly 25,000 people die of PE without the vaccine.
Thrombosis, PE, DVT is one of largest preventable death causes in UK. I, d guess that is pretty much case in Germany. 9 deaths from Cerebral Embolism as far as I can ascertain would be normal in any 2.7 million people.???
People die of blood clots all the time??
By the way, if you see AZ as the bullet in a game of Russian Roulette, don't pick up the gun. Just refuse it. Problem solved. It's a lottery rest of world would love to have a ticket for.
But you'd rather opt for that lottery but justify not letting others buy a ticket. Again a very odd stance.
By all means come to conclusion AZ is unsafe, folk believe all sorts of weird and wonderful things, but your views shouldn't stop others having access to a vaccine, especially when you opted into the lottery.
If its unsafe. Don't have it. Fine.
But don't have it, and then endorse it being stopped for others. Let them, like you, make up their own mind.
The roll out should never have been halted anywhere. People should have been informed of data, had it explained and allowed to decide for themselves. Its called being an adult, living in a free world and paying some respect to democracy and human rights.
The whole of Europe has the cash, facilities, technical ability and know how to have made billions of doses by now. The EU, or countries within it chose not to chase that goal 12 months ago. It could have been done.
We, ve gone from producing zero covid vaccine to I, d guess 5 million per week in 12 months. If that possible why wasn't 30 million per week. Because the will to do so wasn't there. We humans achieve want we want to achieve.

Please do not be rediculous. Acknowledge that getting up to the production levels achieved to date is a magnificent success. And the global community is ramping up everything so the'5 will soon be 20, will soon be 50 may even be 100. And we need these numbers to get on top of extra mutations. Ireland should have a million new vaccines within the month.
Meanwhile other researchers are trying to identify the exact circumstances which induce blood clotting in younger normally healthy women. There are lines of inquiry opening up, including perhaps specific contraceptive pill

 

[oldgroaner]

If somebody really believes all the figures you chose to believe they are perfectly free to refuse vaccine.

The figures are official ones from the Government

here is the link
MHRA Coronavirus Vaccine - summary of Yellow Card reporting

"The MHRA has received 259 UK reports of suspected ADRs to the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in which the patient died shortly after vaccination, 326 reports for the Oxford University/AstraZeneca vaccine and 9 where the brand of vaccine was unspecified. "

Is there any reason NOT to believe the official organisation monitoring the situation?
And of course there is this
"The whole of Europe has the cash, facilities, technical ability and know how to have made billions of doses by now. The EU, or countries within it chose"

The EU sent 10 million doses to the UK and we promised them the following

"AstraZeneca has reached an agreement with Europe’s Inclusive Vaccines Alliance (IVA), spearheaded by Germany, France, Italy and the Netherlands, to supply up to 400 million doses of the University of Oxford’s COVID-19 vaccine, with deliveries starting by the end of 2020.


If it so easy, how do we end up exporting NONE, after this promise?

Hard to believe isn't it?

 

[Jesus H Christ]

The British Medical Journal has found that than one in five people request a Covid-19 test if they have symptoms, while the number who follow full self-isolation rules is low, the large study has found.

With us having a population this kind of, “special stupid” we should scrap the thirty-seven thousand-million pound test and trace system. This also explains our high death rate.

 

[Nev]

This is a well balanced piece about the risks of blood clots from the AZ vaccine.
AstraZeneca: Is there a blood clot risk? - BBC News

 

[oldgroaner]

Meanwhile in the Alternative universe of "Little England" we have this

And what did he actually say?
"Sir Keir said: “My instinct is that, as the vaccine is rolled out, as the number of hospital admissions and deaths go down, there will be a British sense that we don’t actually want to go down this road.”

 

[oldgroaner]

This is a well balanced piece about the risks of blood clots from the AZ vaccine.
AstraZeneca: Is there a blood clot risk? - BBC News

Blood clots are by no mean the only danger, look at the Government figures

 

[oldgroaner]

 

[Jesus H Christ]

So, in every 1 000 000 you would expect to see between 2 and 16 cases of blood clotting occurring naturally.

After using the Oxford vaccine, Germany is reporting 11 cases per 1 000 000 Oxford vaccinated people and the U.K., 1 in every 2 million vaccinated people. Both way below the background levels.

The formula “The threat from the virus > The threat from the vaccine“ holds true.

However the following also holds in the EU “If vaccine name = Oxford then reject”

The snide oily French pigmy is now trying to blame the U.K. COVID variant for his shambolic vaccination programme and their THIRD lockdown as COVID spirals out of control. Funny how this U.K. variant isn’t doing the same in the U.K. perhaps it’s because we are using the vaccine and not putting our efforts into discouraging them?

 

[Suzan]

Danidl

EMA approves new vaccine plants in Germany, other countries – DW – 03/26/2021

The European Medicines Agency has authorized several new coronavirus vaccine plants in Germany and other European countries, as the EU faces a spat with the UK over vaccine exports.

www.dw.com

This is just for an example.
Yes, you are perfectly correct, production for vaccines was ramped up by a massive amount. 2 new sites in UK, one in Belgium all producing vaccine now. There must be others as well around world that have sprung up in last 12 months.
The examples in Germany should have been commissioned months ago, when we first knew we, d be needing so much vaccine.
If you can scale up production of anything by a factor of 10 you can, if the will exists, scale it up by a factor of 100.
Why you have to resort to my being ridiculous, I have no idea.
Please explain both why I am being ridiculous and exactly what principle prevents vaccine production being scaled up and quickly. The only limit is human will. People like you, accept the limits imposed by the current situation. Dynamic leaders would change the situation.