Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

How many many time must I answer this question Zlatan, for you to continue to refuse to understand?

The EU and its bodies are temporary for the purpose of working towards Europe being a single united nation. Until that is achieved the EU will be very limited in its effectiveness while the member countries hold individual overruling power.

Bodies like the EMA, Space Agency etc are steps on the road to a United Europe with a single central government for the Europe wide issues. The vaccine need was an ideal candidate for EU wide governance, giving several benefits over individual countries running them.
.

No, no, no. It's you refusing to see reality.
Repeating my question, it's got buried.
Its a serious, relevant and pertinent question and I, d like all the folk supporting EU wide delay to think about it and answer honestly.
If you had an AZ vaccine booked for this afternoon would you go?
And, probably more importantly, would you stop others going?

 

[Danidl]

The truth as JHC stated above is 37 cases, with no proven link, out of 17 million administered of AZ, with almost identical occurrence in Pfizer and actually less cases than would be expected out of 17 million people chosen at random.
The truth is there for all to see, you simply don't want to accept there simply is no medical reason to suspend AZ use, and if there is why has Pfizer not been stopped.
Its almost guaranteed that when EMA make their announcement tomorrow it will be no different to what they have said all along.
A) Chances of link are very very remote
B) Even if link exists the numbers involved are so low they are not over those in a normal population and risk is way under that of covid having not taken vaccine.
They have been searching for reasons to do this all along. You explain why?
I gave figures last week on risk(even assuming a link)
It is 0.007 per 1000 jabs administered.
Risk for contraceptive pill (for clots etc) is 0.6 per 1000 administered. In other words, even if there is a link, it's over 1000 less times likely to occur than risk of females taking pill. Just explain to me how that makes any medical sense. If you fail to take pill... You get pregnant. If you fail to have jab... You could die. Its insane. And nothing to do with either precaution or medical reasons.

Of course Risk analysis is also about perception. But what is your figures are totally incorrect?. What if the formulation in the EU is different than the UK. Anyone who has ever been involved in manufacturing will appreciate the variations in supply chains Let me put this very simple scenario to you..
Had my son got the AZ yesterday, I might be planning a funeral today. Indeed I might have been planning two, as a sister under Cancer treatment would also be in the cohort. If he waits until the analysis is carried out, all he has to do is continue as he has for the last year and remain isolated,and then get vaccinated. Remember the next tranche of people scheduled from last Monday were his cohort of immunosuppressed , medical cases . The Nordic fatality was a supposed fit young health care worker.

 

[POLLY]

Also worth mentioning is the UKs world leading performance in identifying and tracking the mutation of the coronavirus. This data will be invaluable for the development of future vaccine.

100% Bull Crap

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Now Ursula Von-Trap is spouting on about not allowing vaccine to leave the EU.

What does she want to do, stockpile Oxford vaccine and not use it?

 

[Jesus H Christ]

100% Bull Crap

Is that a new variant?

 

[POLLY]

Indeed we do have some good people but in fact variants have been detected in 11 countries including the UK
So the world would appear in fact to be telling us at the rate of 10 to one.

100% Bull Crap

 

[POLLY]

From what I have seen there does not appear to be hardly any increased risk of blood clots from using the AZ vaccine and if there is an increase it is absolutely tiny so small it may well be just noise. I heard an expert say yesterday that they could not see any logical reason why several countries had paused the AZ roll out.

He went on to say that the data showed there was virtually no difference in the rates of blood clots between any of the vaccines in current use. So he could not understand why if countries were pausing the AZ vaccine then they should also pause all the other vaccines they were using too.

He did not want to say it but it was obvious that he thought a lot of this was political. Many politicians in the EU countries are being blamed by their electorate for the slow (relative to the UK and US) rate of vaccination taking place. It looks like they are trying to deflect some of this blame by trying to imply the AZ vaccine is possibly unsafe and so they were correct to take a slow and steady approach.

My worry is that people in this country are now going to become reluctant to take the AZ vaccine and our excellent roll out will start to slow down.

100% Bull Crap

 

[flecc]

No, no, no. It's you refusing to see reality.
Repeating my question, it's got buried.
Its a serious, relevant and pertinent question and I, d like all the folk supporting EU wide delay to think about it and answer honestly.
If you had an AZ vaccine booked for this afternoon would you go?
And, probably more importantly, would you stop others going?

The opposite. My replies to JHC and yourself were a complete, honest and rational answer.

The problem you and JHC have is that you are so phobically opposed to the existence of the EU that you are incapable of any rational judgement in relation to it. One can even visualise you both foaming at the mouth as you type.

Perhaps the best indication of your joint incapability is the existence of these posts. We've left the EU, hadn't you noticed? This momentary pause of one vaccine only in some other countries is nothing whatsoever to do with you, so continuing your posting so fanatically and repeatedly about it is almost akin to a mental illness.
.

 

[Zlatan]

The opposite. My replies to JHC and yourself were a complete, honest and rational answer.

The problem you and JHC have is that you are so phobically opposed to the existence of the EU that you are incapable of any rational judgement in relation to it. One can even visualise you both foaming at the mouth as you type.

Perhaps the best indication of your joint incapability is the existence of these posts. We've left the EU, hadn't you noticed? This momentary pause of one vaccine only in some other countries is nothing whatsoever to do with you, so continuing your posting so fanatically and repeatedly about it is almost akin to a mental illness.
.

I notice, even through my foam, that you didn't answer the questions.
Is there sufficient evidence to stop you going for a vaccine and would you prevent others going?
Danudl
If you don't believe the figures there ain't any point in banning or using the vaccine. Of course the figures could be wrong, there might be nobody with problems there might be millions if we are guessing. Idea is to record what's actually happening.
I, d guess thousands since having vaccine have had cancer diagnosed, bad stomachs, head aches and a few might have got pregnant. I know for a fact a friend of mine has a broken arm, he fell off his roof, perhaps dissiness caused by vaccine. How many more do you want to stop vaccine for? It's utter, utter madness.
Now be honest Danid. Given choice would you go and have jab this pm? All medical experts, all of them Danidl, are saying "go and get it". But now for some odd reason you listen to politicians. Suppose it was reversed and politicians said go get it, but medics said "hang on a minute, it's dangerous".
I, ve listened, well tried to, to the medics all the time. Politicians are unreliable, mixed motives and generally untrustworthy. Think Flecc and yourself have argued that for 4 years, but now they know more than EMA, Mhra, JVCI and every doctor I, ve heard speak about it.
Thought mental illness a prerequisite of posting on your thread flecc. Think we all qualify.
Your defence of EU and various governments over this is astonishing, especially for someone who has put so much faith in objectivity. This decision is pure speculation, political jousting and at end of day utterly wrong.

 

[POLLY]

We have recently been discussing side effects from the vaccine on here this is a good article about it all.
Vaccine side effects: My experience of them and what they mean - BBC News

nuclear warheads

"Why do we need more nuclear warheads?"
Johnson can't afford penis enlargement surgery perchance?
And hasn't heard of the Tudor times fashion for a roundly padded cod piece.

nuclear warheads don't exist

 

[oldgroaner]

Their experts tho flec(EMA) are giving AZ vaccine a clean bill of health.
Yes, AZ did make initial errors in dosage and trial participant selection but that has nothing to do with this.
I, d totally agree with you if EMA had advised caution. They have not, never did over this issue. They have said all along delay is much worse than risk of clot problems.
We get accused of jingoism for suggesting EU ministers and governments of countries suspending roll out are not listening to the science. There simply is no medical justification for this delay. Why are you now supporting a blatant political decision when criticising our government for, allegedly, doing same. There is no consistency to your stance. Had Johnson done this I, d be criticising him for not listening to SAGE/Mhra. EU ministers are obviously advising Governments of countries to suspend vaccine, but can(as normal) pass blame to individual countries.(why else would all countries suspending roll out be within EU)
Its all utterly ridiculous. EU supporters are in this case defending the indefensible. Their actions are killing people. Look at figures for France and Italy and listen to what their doctors are saying.
Its unbelievable and more so rational people here defending it.

This is nothing to do with the EU, these are national decisions
So it follows we are not defending the EU merely countering your wrongly directed ire.

 

[Danidl]

I notice, even through my foam, that you didn't answer the questions.
Is there sufficient evidence to stop you going for a vaccine and would you prevent others going?
Danudl
If you don't believe the figures there ain't any point in banning or using the vaccine. Of course the figures could be wrong, there might be nobody with problems there might be millions if we are guessing. Idea is to record what's actually happening.
I, d guess thousands since having vaccine have had cancer diagnosed, bad stomachs, head aches and a few might have got pregnant. I know for a fact a friend of mine has a broken arm, he fell off his roof, perhaps dissiness caused by vaccine. How many more do you want to stop vaccine for? It's utter, utter madness.
Now be honest Danid. Given choice would you go and have jab this pm? All medical experts, all of them Danidl, are saying "go and get it". But now for some odd reason you listen to politicians. Suppose it was reversed and politicians said go get it, but medics said "hang on a minute, it's dangerous".
I, ve listened, well tried to, to the medics all the time. Politicians are unreliable, mixed motives and generally untrustworthy. Think Flecc and yourself have argued that for 4 years, but now they know more than EMA, Mhra, JVCI and every doctor I, ve heard speak about it.
Thought mental illness a prerequisite of posting on your thread flecc. Think we all qualify.
Your defence of EU and various governments over this is astonishing, especially for someone who has put so much faith in objectivity. This decision is pure speculation, political jousting and at end of day utterly wrong.

No!. I am listening not to the politicians, but to the Irish DCMO Dr. Glynn , and he made his decision on the advice of the Immunization Council . Is it an abundance of caution ?... Hopefully yes. Is it rational ?. Extremely so. You have a problem, you stop,if you can, you assess the risk, you make a decision,based on evidence, and then proceed. It could well be that that with the analysis, it is discovered that there is a serious risk of death in a fraction of a percentage , and that the benefits to the majority outweigh the costs of the deaths. Under such a calculation ,Yes I would take the vaccine. Just as I took a procedure in September with a 2% mortality risk ,and then repeated it a month later with another 2% mortality risk.
Woosh made a very important point earlier, which of course was ignored, .. the UK was in a much more precarious position in December than any other European country, and the benefits / risk ratio dictated that they act EVEN WITHOUT factoring in possible consequences. Even today, the infection rates and the deaths in the UK are still comparable with EU countries particular if you offset the timeline by say 3 weeks.
The reason I am dubious about the UK figures is because the claim that the AZ has less blood clotting than random, reads like PR.

 

[flecc]

I notice, even through my foam, that you didn't answer the questions.

Already answered as I've said repeatedly now. This was the question you asked:

"If you had an AZ vaccine booked for this afternoon would you go?
And, probably more importantly, would you stop others going?"

One; You know I've already had the vaccine, so you know that's yes.

Two; I've posted in my Antigen post that everyone should accept the vaccine, so of course I wouldn't try to stop others.

But neither of those is relevant, since I'm in a different country with the information and official direction I have here, so I'm not entitled to judge for others elsewhere in different circumstances, and nor are you.

In any case your question was completely unnecessary since no country has banned the AZ vaccine. Many are using it already and have stocks which they are prepare to use again.

Your defence of EU and various governments over this is astonishing, especially for someone who has put so much faith in objectivity. This decision is pure speculation, political jousting and at end of day utterly wrong.

Wrong, there's nothing astonishing about allowing governments to have the right to be cautious in using a new and still little known treatment. We have no idea as yet if any of these vaccines is completely safe and are using them on a balance of risks basis.

We in the UK took the biggest risk of all with the AZ vaccine, being first to use it without full trials, full approval or peer review. So far that has appeared to pay off, but after only 15 weeks that's far from definite.

Other countries seeing that experience have followed, but still cautiously since the older age groups have never been trialled. Being already cautious it's only natural that reports of blood clots would bring their reaction.

You are acting as though they've banned the AZ when all they've done is paused and will no doubt be using it again shortly after checks. So no big deal for you and JHC to get hysterical about.
.

 

[POLLY]

yes, there is. You just don't want to see it.
If this is proven, it won't be just the AZ vaccine, Pfizer vaccine and others will be scrutinised too.
At the moment, we have a few dozen cases reported. There will be more as clinicians are aware of what to look out for. It will be beneficial to know if and how much so we can make better decisions in the future.
The balance is what harm is incurred if the AZ vaccine is suspended set against potential harm of a causal link between blood clots and the AZ vaccine.
The equilibrium point varies from country to country. If your country has a high death toll, it simply cannot afford to slow down vaccinations. Countries that has good stock of Pfizer can stop for a week or two while their scientists go through the study.

it's all the same poison

 

[oldgroaner]

I notice, even through my foam, that you didn't answer the questions.
Is there sufficient evidence to stop you going for a vaccine and would you prevent others going?
Danudl
If you don't believe the figures there ain't any point in banning or using the vaccine. Of course the figures could be wrong, there might be nobody with problems there might be millions if we are guessing. Idea is to record what's actually happening.
I, d guess thousands since having vaccine have had cancer diagnosed, bad stomachs, head aches and a few might have got pregnant. I know for a fact a friend of mine has a broken arm, he fell off his roof, perhaps dissiness caused by vaccine. How many more do you want to stop vaccine for? It's utter, utter madness.
Now be honest Danid. Given choice would you go and have jab this pm? All medical experts, all of them Danidl, are saying "go and get it". But now for some odd reason you listen to politicians. Suppose it was reversed and politicians said go get it, but medics said "hang on a minute, it's dangerous".
I, ve listened, well tried to, to the medics all the time. Politicians are unreliable, mixed motives and generally untrustworthy. Think Flecc and yourself have argued that for 4 years, but now they know more than EMA, Mhra, JVCI and every doctor I, ve heard speak about it.
Thought mental illness a prerequisite of posting on your thread flecc. Think we all qualify.
Your defence of EU and various governments over this is astonishing, especially for someone who has put so much faith in objectivity. This decision is pure speculation, political jousting and at end of day utterly wrong.

Try to understand
The EU is not to blame for this

Member State Governments are doing this against the EU advice.

Why is that a problem to understand?

 

[POLLY]

Already answered as I've said repeatedly now. This was the question you asked:

"If you had an AZ vaccine booked for this afternoon would you go?
And, probably more importantly, would you stop others going?"

One; You know I've already had the vaccine, so you know that's yes.

Two; I've posted in my Antigen post that everyone should accept the vaccine, so of course I wouldn't try to stop others.

But neither of those is relevant, since I'm in a different country with the information and official direction I have here, so I'm not entitled to judge for others elsewhere in different circumstances, and nor are you.

In any case your question was completely unnecessary since no country has banned the AZ vaccine. Many are using it already and have stocks which they are prepare to use again.



Wrong, there's nothing astonishing about allowing governments to have the right to be cautious in using a new and still little known treatment. We have no idea as yet if any of these vaccines is completely safe and are using them on a balance of risks basis.

We in the UK took the biggest risk of all with the AZ vaccine, being first to use it without full trials, full approval or peer review. So far that has appeared to pay off, but after only 15 weeks that's far from definite.

Other countries seeing that experience have followed, but still cautiously since the older age groups have never been trialled. Being already cautious it's only natural that reports of blood clots would bring their reaction.

You are acting as though they've banned the AZ when all they've done is paused and will no doubt be using it again shortly after checks, So no big deal for you and JHC to get hysterical about.
.

it's all the same poison

 

[Woosh]

Its a simple and pertinent question. Had you got a booking for AZ vaccine today would you go?

yes, of course I would and it would be my second jab.
The issue isn't there though.
We reach a plateau in number of positive tests, 5,300 a day for about a week now.
That's our new normal, the number of deaths continue to fall, a clear sign of success for the vaccine.
But stop and think for a minute. Statistically, blood clots appear in about 2% of those who have Covid. That's about 100 cases every day. Nobody in the UK bothers to check how many and how long those 100 people a day have had a jab.
Otherwise, the number of suspect cases would run into thousands.

 

[POLLY]

yes, of course I would and it would be my second jab.
The issue isn't there though.
We reach a plateau in number of positive tests, 5,300 a day for about a week now.
That's our new normal, the number of deaths continue to fall, a clear sign of success for the vaccine.
But stop and think for a minute. Statistically, blood clots appear in about 2% of those who have Covid. That's about 100 cases every day. Nobody in the UK bothers to check how many and how long those 5,300 positive case people have had a jab.
Otherwise, the number of suspect cases would run into thousands.

100% bull crap

 

[Nev]

I watched the Welsh Government Coronavirus Briefing today the speaker was Vaughn Gething the Minister for Health and Social Services in Wales.

He has the following to say in regards to the AZ vaccine and the possible increase in blood clots. He said in the 17 million AZ vaccinations that have taken place across the UK and the EU there have been 15 events of deep vain thrombosis and 22 events of pulmonary embolism.

To put this in some context he went on to say that is 0.88 DVT and 1.3 PE for every million vaccines administered. These are tiny numbers in comparison to the number of vaccines that have been issued. You are far more likely to get blood clots from catching covid than you are from getting them from the vaccine.

If these numbers are more or less accurate then I fail to see how in any way they can be used to justify suspending the use of the AZ vaccine.

 

[Woosh]

I think they only notify the authorities if there is some clear sign that it's related. Beside those, if you look at the number of people being hospitalised because of Covid, the difference between those who are not vaccinated and those who have received a jab 11+ weeks before, the vaccine effect is small. They are all just as likely to get blood clots as a result of serious covid needing hospitalisation. If you say: covid causes the clots, not the vaccine. You are probably right. However, you accept by the same token the causal link between the virus and blood clots. Now drill down a bit, what if the vaccine produces in some people symptoms of covid because the virus is already there and the body's immune system kicks off violently after the injection?