Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

My my that's the new one karma

Actually I'm not interested in discussions with someone who comes on here and assumes ownership of the thread as you have, so here is a helpful suggestion
Block me, and then you will remain blissfully free of reading my posts.
I shall retain the favour as I don't care for your attitude either, too quick to take offence for me, especially straight from the off. Not good etiquette when you are a stranger to the discussion.

No need to single you out. We all insult each other, but you are a bit better and determined than rest of us at it. I did think let Susan have time to read a post before you call her a tory fan boy but some people are so sensitive.
Sorry Susan. Ignore him.

 

[Zlatan]

Of course not, as a Commission member she is in an executive position subject to severe limits as you already know.

There is no EU mechanism to remove her, there is a mechanism to prevent her acting and that is that the European Parliament can and often does overrule the Commission. That is the safeguard while Europe is still fragmented into diverse countries.

But like all governance it's a very imperfect system and we know all about that with our UK governments, especially in recent decades.
.

Do you think that OK?

 

[oldgroaner]

No need to single you out. We all insult each other, but you are a bit better and determined than rest of us at it. I did think let Susan have time to read a post before you call her a tory fan boy but some people are so sensitive.
Sorry Susan. Ignore him.

We insult each other as old friends do, and that is the difference. when you are new to a group discussion wisdom and good manners don't stretch so far as to say publicly you don't want someone to discuss with you, as if you have some strange notion of ownership and are free to make a statement that you are above belonging to the group.
That is simply attempted disruptive behaviour and by no means a new tactic.

(Thanks for the compliment...I think)

 

[Zlatan]

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

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Good news.
(sorry, it breaks link. I pay for FT. Basically they have found very good T cell response in both vaccinated and after infection. Suggesting protection against variants.)

 

[flecc]

Do you think that OK?

It has to be pending any success in uniting all the countries into one and I do think it ok since it has the democratic safeguards that I pointed out.

Like us where we couldn't vote out Dominic Cummings who was steering our ship by proxy, or vote out the Union leaders who were running Callaghan's Labour government. Or vote out the IMF who were controlling our treasury most of that decade. Or vote out unelected Prime Minister for a year Sir Alec Douglas-Home who was taken from the House of Lords to serve in that role

A check in the national mirror is always a good idea when criticising others.
.

 

[Danidl]

For Danidl
View attachment 41071
From the article. (not my font size, apologies)
I do suggest we all read the article. It isn't pushing UK as some vaccine saviour, simply explaining mechanics and politics behind the vaccine, which is proving to be equally important as the science behind them.

I could quibble that not giving the two jabs at the regulators agreed schedule constitutes no vaccination..and so would a court of law regarding any contract. But yes I fully accept that the UK has provided vaccination protection to a larger fraction of its population at this time. It is in this case also a gamble which appears to be paying off...
The equivalent case in contract law would be ...
"Yes I put down a 50% deposit on the car, and agreed to pay the remainder 3 weeks later, but I prefer having the money in my pocket and may eventually pay it , maybe in 3 months time. But I will drive it in the meantime"
The UK Government could afford to do this because nobody could sue them. The Vaccine company cannot because they have indemnified them,even if it no longer works, the customer or citizen cannot sue the vaccine company, and has no chance against the Government.

 

[Danidl]

"Science?
We've had enough of Science!
What has Science ever done for us?"
Mention Science on here and see where it gets you!
They treat you like that Corbyn fella!

Unfortunately I have served a life sentence to Science, with no time off for good behaviour. Far to late for me to wallow in alternative facts.

 

[Danidl]

Do you think that OK?

Flecc, is slightly incorrect.
The EU Parliament can sack the President of the Commission..however in doing so, they also sack or remove the portfolios of all the other Commissioners. This is logical because the other Commissioners are recommended into their posts by the President,and then ratified by the Parliament. They could then request the European Council to recommend another Presidential candidate, who could then recommend the existing Commissioners again.
There is other levels of oversight. The 27 Heads of Government of the member states form the European Council, and they elect a President of the Council. .. this person, who serves for 2.5 years is the individual to whom the President of the Commission reports ,and I suspect signed their letter of appointment.
In terms of governance, the best way to look at it as .
The European Council is the ultimate Board of Directors, with the President of the Council the Chair. I strongly suspect that if the President of the Council ,acting with a consensus of the Council, had a quiet word with the President of the Commission , they would resign.
The Commissioners are the Heads of executive departments and the President of the Commission the CEO.
The Commission is responsible to the Parliament or the Works Committee.
The Works Committee is directly elected by the membership..us EU citizens, and the Board of Directors also elected via their national elections.
So yes as a person with a vote into both the works committee and Board of Directors, ..no matter how diluted, I think its OK.

 

[Danidl]

Danidl
I suggest you go back to post 92170 and have a good read of the link. It's a long article, you haven't had time to read it.
Should be compulsory reading for anyone commenting on vaccines. Its not political or biased. Read it. The figures I quoted about uptake were from data this morning. I, ll find it.
If you read the article you will realise EU has had 2 major stumbling blocks. Big pharma countries suspected there would be low uptake accross much of EU, combine that with EU insistence of low price yet high accountability and Pharma were bound to concentrate efforts elsewhere. UK, Israel and USA to a lesser extent perhaps, were willing to pay whatever the price was and (perhaps wrongly, time will tell) forego accountability.
Read the article and wake up. EU is behind in vaccine race, will remain so and may never catch up but console yourself with the fact all done for right reasons. Accountability and price.

Thank you , I have read the article and yes, It is a fair enough summary of the history . It really is a case that the UK capitalised on the deliberation by the EU. It just meant that more product from Pfizer was available for the UK in December and from AZ in January.

 

[Woosh]

EU is behind in vaccine race,

that's only true if the vaccines are unavailable.

 

[Zlatan]

It has to be pending any success in uniting all the countries into one and I do think it ok since it has the democratic safeguards that I pointed out.

Like us where we couldn't vote out Dominic Cummings who was steering our ship by proxy, or vote out the Union leaders who were running Callaghan's Labour government. Or vote out the IMF who were controlling our treasury most of that decade. Or vote out unelected Prime Minister for a year Sir Alec Douglas-Home who was taken from the House of Lords to serve in that role

A check in the national mirror is always a good idea when criticising others.
.

Yep, agreed. I wasn't criticising BTW..
I see all that but just wonder how general public see it. Yes, we know heads of EU couldn't or wouldn't start a war like our friend Tony. But he was ousted, in fact I truly believe had it not been for his war mongering with Bush he, d still be in power. Perhaps if entire country had either your understanding of EU or had sat an OU course on Politics we would not have voted leave. It does seem undemocratic to have a leader we can't remove next election. Bare in mind, if this vaccine roll out does fail I suspect like you Boris will fail with it. Whereas if EU one fails Von Leyen remains???
Now, strictly speaking, by letter of law all that might not be case but its people's impression and not reality which affects voting???
Listening to you, I, ll admit, I, ve learned lots about EU. I still see many aspects as wrong (the slow admin, the deliberation, the translating to 24 languages) but can't see how it can be expected any general public can really have faith in an institution where its head can not be removed by electorate without them having a degree in politics.???(the public not the head BTW)
I, m not criticising EU, I honestly believe decisions made, especially around accountability were for correct motives, but it seems again EU place idealism over pragmatism.
If this was a family problem and be saying like UK, stuff the price and we will deal with accountability down the line. Get the vaccines.???

 

[Zlatan]

that's only true if the vaccines are unavailable.

How so?
I see vaccine roll out as a 10k mile sea journey. We, ve got 2 month start, got all provisions we need to get to destination. Yes, we, ve tried to cut a corner which might knock 500 miles off journey or it might add 200,but we are miles ahead and have better boat speed.??? Let's hope we avoid rocks, Storms and mutiny.??

 

[Jesus H Christ]

that's only true if the vaccines are unavailable.

What about being very very late placing an order. Does that count as being behind?

 

[flecc]

Listening to you, I, ll admit, I, ve learned lots about EU. I still see many aspects as wrong (the slow admin, the deliberation, the translating to 24 languages)

I don't like those faults either, but they are unavoidable in the EU's temporary circumstances. In truth all democracies are a sham in practice, as the oft quoted saying goes in various ways, "Democracy is a very poor system of government but it's the best we've got".

but can't see how it can be expected any general public can really have faith in an institution where its head can not be removed by electorate without them having a degree in politics.???

I don't have a degree in anything, I prefer having more useful knowledge, with the emphasis on more.

Ultimately the public can remove anyone if it's justified enough, just as they got rid of Dominic Cummings in the end through not letting go of his misdemeanour so making his position intolerable.
.

 

[Woosh]

How so?
I see vaccine roll out as a 10k mile sea journey. We, ve got 2 month start, got all provisions we need to get to destination. Yes, we, ve tried to cut a corner which might knock 500 miles off journey or it might add 200,but we are miles ahead and have better boat speed.??? Let's hope we avoid rocks, Storms and mutiny.??

the EU's job is to source the vaccines, it's up to member states to jab their citizens.
For example, France may want to insist on individuals getting personal medical advice, others don't.
In our case, we are limited by stock.
Someone said the NHS could vaccinate the whole country in one week if we had the vaccines.

 

[Woosh]

What about being very very late placing an order. Does that count as being behind?

It's just an excuse given by AZ. The contract may be re-negotiated if not done so already.
EU flexed its muscle at the wrong time, when it's a sellers market. It allows now member countries to buy extra doses separately if they so wish.
AZ has customers waiting and willing to pay higher price and take on any liability. It's really a no brainer but I think they'll sort out their stock issue by July.

 

[oldgroaner]

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication

www.ft.com

Good news.
(sorry, it breaks link. I pay for FT. Basically they have found very good T cell response in both vaccinated and after infection. Suggesting protection against variants.)

Agreed

 

[oldgroaner]

It has to be pending any success in uniting all the countries into one and I do think
Callaghan's Labour government. Or vote out the IMF who were controlling our treasury most of that decade. Or vote out unelected Prime Minister for a year Sir Alec Douglas-Home who was taken from the House of Lords to serve in that role

A check in the national mirror is always a good idea when criticising others.
.

Agreed
An even better idea is finding a way to get out from the wrong side of the mirror so we can look in the reflective shiny bit!
And then seal up the cracks we fell through to end up there so it doesn't happen again.

 

[Zlatan]

It's just an excuse given by AZ. The contract may be re-negotiated if not done so already.
EU flexed its muscle at the wrong time, when it's a sellers market. It allows now member countries to buy extra doses separately if they so wish.
AZ has customers waiting and willing to pay higher price and take on any liability. It's really a no brainer but I think they'll sort out their stock issue by July.

There has been criticism when countries have gone alone recently. No matter who is responsible it is not admirable. Remainers don't like to see or admit it but rightly or wrongly it has been seen as a vindication of Brexit. Just because it isn't in your mind (many on here) doesn't mean it isn't in thousands of others both here and abroad.
I do think it could mark a change for the worse in attitudes towards EU in general for many EU countries. Listen and read the comments coming out of France. (there was one in here other day from France 24)

 

[Danidl]

What about being very very late placing an order. Does that count as being behind?

Again and reading the Zlathan provided article, the EU was a month behind , in ordering so everything else should only have been a month behind the UK. It now appears that the UK is importing AZ product from India.!