Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Start the day with a smile
Till receipt allegedly from a London supermarket

Obviously photoshopped, but funny, the mistake that the culprit made is the price of the Daily Mail which at least in this area is 65 pence!

 

[Jesus H Christ]

There is no single right in the application of the vaccines, it depends on the objective and in consequence the question asked.

Decades of Tory government and their ten years of austerity had left the NHS in a parlous state with the lowest number of hospital beds per 100,000 of the population than any other advanced country. Hence the Nightingale hospitals, but they proved useless since we had no staff for them after Brexit cuased our EU recruiting to collapse.

So our prime objcetive was to save the NHS from collapse and that guided the question, how do we do that. The answer was the two jab system as I've shown, but putting saving the health service before saving patients is an odd priority.

Another valid objective is putting saving patients lives first, which prompts that differemt question for which th answer is different, getting the two jabs into the highest risk of death first at the best intervals.

A third valid objective is to use the vaccines to minimise the infections in the first place, and that's done by jabbing th youngest first from 18 up as some Oriental countries are doing and which our experts say has considerable merit.

You see, no right answer, it's horses for course once more, solely dependent on the circumstances. I believe the second of putting the patients first was the better way for us, but either way it's a gamble no matter who the experts are. No-one knows yet.
.

I think we are getting closer. We don’t yet know the right answer, time will tell.

 

[oldgroaner]

There it is, right there. You can’t separate a discussion regarding a medical decision from Boris Johnson and the Conservative Party. I regularly criticise him / them and the post you were replying to levelled no praise at either Johnson or the Tories.

Seriously, you have a mental condition. I have experience in this field from my work and you are definitely displaying overt symptoms of obsessive and fixated behaviour. The disparity between what is actually happening outside your head in the real world, and what is taking place inside it is getting more pronounced.

Your sense of reasoning is also seriously impaired. For example, you have lost the ability to accept that a person can get something horrible wrong, but that same person may, on rare occasions, get something right. That might be through either luck or surprising judgment, but it does happen.

I don’t mean this as an insult, but you are definitely displaying worrying obsessive behaviour, seek help.

This looks very much like you are making a confession about yourself.
And all because I dare to find fault where it so obviously lies, how unfortunate!
And this tactic of questioning the reasoning of anyone who does that is simply silly
A standard right wing predictable attempt at one upmanship., but then, you voted for the clowns didn't you?
So much for your judgement!

 

[Suzan]

There is no single right in the application of the vaccines, it depends on the objective and in consequence the question asked.

Decades of Tory government and their ten years of austerity had left the NHS in a parlous state with the lowest number of hospital beds per 100,000 of the population than any other advanced country. Hence the Nightingale hospitals, but they proved useless since we had no staff for them after Brexit cuased our EU recruiting to collapse.

So our prime objcetive was to save the NHS from collapse and that guided the question, how do we do that. The answer was the two jab system as I've shown, but putting saving the health service before saving patients is an odd priority.

Another valid objective is putting saving patients lives first, which prompts that differemt question for which th answer is different, getting the two jabs into the highest risk of death first at the best intervals.

A third valid objective is to use the vaccines to minimise the infections in the first place, and that's done by jabbing th youngest first from 18 up as some Oriental countries are doing and which our experts say has considerable merit.

You see, no right answer, it's horses for course once more, solely dependent on the circumstances. I believe the second of putting the patients first was the better way for us, but either way it's a gamble no matter who the experts are. No-one knows yet.
.

This post is aimed at Flecc and Flecc alone, I, m not interested in entering discussion with OG or Jonathon Agnew thank you very much. So neither of you reply. Thank you.
Very good post Flecc and well explained, with good points. However many of them, in fact most, could be used as justification of our current roll out policy.
You say the prime objective was to save the NHS over saving lives. First of all they are just about the same thing, look up the NHS directives, and secondly the main reason they went with single jab delay was to save more lives. Your assumption is the delay will be maintained, as I tried to explain the other day, the 12 week delay can not be maintained to the end for logistic reasons. (If we are trying to get jabs in arms ASAP)
What we will see, as we look back, is a long delay initially to encompass the very group you wish to protect fast (rightly). (ie the over 80's),for whom we have already seen a staggering, and the largest, decline in deaths. As we work toward the younger groups it will be the highest risk groups all getting their second jabs first.?? Yet, the single jab has already proved its worth. The delay will start to shorten, as we progress down through the age groups.
I really don't understand this insistence extended delay won't work when it has already been shown to be doing so.
Personally don't care if Boris did make the decision, (he didn't tho for reasons already explained) because its working.??
It is only OG and Jonathon Agnew I, m not interested in speaking to. They both insult or make massive presumptions. (Hope that doesn't break any rules)

 

[Danidl]

You can’t understand that protection has been diluted by around 10% to give 100% more people a temporarily slightly lower level of protection can you?

As I’ve posted above, think yourself lucky that you aren’t living in France. It’s very likely you would not have even had your first vaccination yet, leaving you totally unprotected. Or even Germany when only at this late stage they have eventually decided to use the AZ vaccine in your age group!

We are following medical advice from leading medical experts and we are fortunate that for once this clown-cart government is listening to them.

You are so mind obsessed with Boris Johnson that every single thing has to be pulled down, dismantled and destroyed. You then forensically scour the debris for links to the Tory party, and when you find none, you fabricate them. You are unwell, your behaviour is an illness.

Yes. Germany has now DECIDED to use the AZ vaccine on the older cohort. The key question is the WHY... Answer .. EVIDENCE from the UK now shows it is effective. There wasn't sufficient evidence now there is. It is exactly what they said they would do. But remember AZ is only supplying 40% of the amount they originally committed to providing, and are not even delivering to that. ..Last week The Irish vaccination was 18% down on schedule, due solely to a reduced delivery of the already reduced allocation of AZ.

 

[Woosh]

wider approval of the AZ vaccine doesn't change the number of people vaccinated.

 

[Zlatan]

Yes. Germany has now DECIDED to use the AZ vaccine on the older cohort. The key question is the WHY... Answer .. EVIDENCE from the UK now shows it is effective. There wasn't sufficient evidence now there is. It is exactly what they said they would do. But remember AZ is only supplying 40% of the amount they originally committed to providing, and are not even delivering to that. ..Last week The Irish vaccination was 18% down on schedule, due solely to a reduced delivery of the already reduced allocation of AZ.

France has administered 270,000 AZ jabs out of 5 million supplied.
Germany has administered 240,00 AZ jabs out of 4 million supplied.
Figures as of 2nd March.
Speaks for itself.
The Berlin vaccination centre is capable of administering 4000 jabs a day. It was running at 300/day.(And it was fully stocked at time)

 

[Danidl]

EU not happy...

European Commission slams Britain for 'breaching international law AGAIN' by 'violating Brexit deal' to extend Irish border grace period until October

• Commission vice president Maros Sefcovic slammed Britain for violating law
• Government unilaterally decided to extend the Irish Sea border grace period
• The Irish Government also branded the intervention 'deeply unhelpful'

By Jack Newman For Mailonline

Published: 20:54, 3 March 2021 | Updated: 20:58, 3 March 2021

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9322751/EU-slams-Britain-breaching-international-law-extending-Irish-border-grace-period.html

The information you are quoting is just the immediate gob smacked response from EU officials. Now that they have had a night to to sleep on it, you will be getting the more considered response... . And that is that last night they were being conciliatory!.
Unless BJs plan was to scupper the entire Free Trade Agreement, all along,and this was the ploy to force it, ..it was an own goal of massive proportions.
Remember the EU Parliament has not yet debated or ratified the December agreement. It was signed off by EU ambassadors in good faith in a temporary capacity, on the understanding that if nothing changed, the EU Parliament..the ultimate legal authority, would debate and ratify. Well yesterday was the day that the heads of committees were setting up the schedule for debate.

 

[Zlatan]

How Europe fell behind on vaccines

The EU secured some of the lowest prices in the world. At what cost?

www.politico.eu

Very good explanation of vaccine story so far.
Flecc
Serious question.
If EU citizens (not MEPs) decide Von Leyen is responsible for vaccine in EU and they want to vote her out, is there a mechanism to get her out? (purely hypothetical of course).

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Yes. Germany has now DECIDED to use the AZ vaccine on the older cohort. The key question is the WHY... Answer .. EVIDENCE from the UK now shows it is effective. There wasn't sufficient evidence now there is. It is exactly what they said they would do. But remember AZ is only supplying 40% of the amount they originally committed to providing, and are not even delivering to that. ..Last week The Irish vaccination was 18% down on schedule, due solely to a reduced delivery of the already reduced allocation of AZ.

I’m afraid that’s a consequence of dithering. It would be unthinkable for AZ to sit on supplies of vaccine that could definitely be used elsewhere whilst the EU makes its mind up.

My opinion is that AZ has tried its best to fulfil supplies to the EU.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

France has administered 270,000 AZ jabs out of 5 million supplied.
Germany has administered 240,00 AZ jabs out of 4 million supplied.
Figures as of 2nd March.
Speaks for itself.
The Berlin vaccination centre is capable of administering 4000 jabs a day. It was running at 300/day.(And it was fully stocked at time)

That’s disgusting.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

This looks very much like you are making a confession about yourself.
And all because I dare to find fault where it so obviously lies, how unfortunate!
And this tactic of questioning the reasoning of anyone who does that is simply silly
A standard right wing predictable attempt at one upmanship., but then, you voted for the clowns didn't you?
So much for your judgement!

You are very poorly. With you, it’s like trying to tell an alcoholic they have a drink problem.

 

[flecc]

This post is aimed at Flecc and Flecc alone, I, m not interested in entering discussion with OG or Jonathon Agnew thank you very much. So neither of you reply. Thank you.
Very good post Flecc and well explained, with good points. However many of them, in fact most, could be used as justification of our current roll out policy.
You say the prime objective was to save the NHS over saving lives. First of all they are just about the same thing, look up the NHS directives, and secondly the main reason they went with single jab delay was to save more lives. Your assumption is the delay will be maintained, as I tried to explain the other day, the 12 week delay can not be maintained to the end for logistic reasons. (If we are trying to get jabs in arms ASAP)
What we will see, as we look back, is a long delay initially to encompass the very group you wish to protect fast (rightly). (ie the over 80's),for whom we have already seen a staggering, and the largest, decline in deaths. As we work toward the younger groups it will be the highest risk groups all getting their second jabs first.?? Yet, the single jab has already proved its worth. The delay will start to shorten, as we progress down through the age groups.
I really don't understand this insistence extended delay won't work when it has already been shown to be doing so.
Personally don't care if Boris did make the decision, (he didn't tho for reasons already explained) because its working.??
It is only OG and Jonathon Agnew I, m not interested in speaking to. They both insult or make massive presumptions. (Hope that doesn't break any rules)

We have partial agreement in that the delay will be shortened, but that isn't only for logistical reasons. It's just been announced that there will be a doubling of the vaccination rate with half the doses going to second jabs and I see this as an admission that the 12/14 week delay policy was far from ideal.

I still don't trust everything we are being told and view the switch from quoting infection rates to quoting hospitalisation rates as simply expedience to make the numbers look better. Hospitalisation rates can fall for many reasons, not least the dramatic decline in the infection rate.
.

 

[Danidl]

France has administered 270,000 AZ jabs out of 5 million supplied.
Germany has administered 240,00 AZ jabs out of 4 million supplied.
Figures as of 2nd March.
Speaks for itself.
The Berlin vaccination centre is capable of administering 4000 jabs a day. It was running at 300/day.(And it was fully stocked at time)

Those statistics are , even if correct, meaningless. .. The Germans and the French were not jabbing the older cohorts with AZ, and had not gone down to the younger age groups yet. Mind you if they forwarded some of their 5M ,to us we would happily use them We have a younger population profile.. But now the Germans will vaccinate the older folk with AZ, so that stockpile will diminish.
The statistic which does matter is the daily new infection rate,and the cumulative death rate per million, and in neither statistic does the UK feature well.
The Germans,the French and the Irish will use the EMA recommendations regarding duration between jabs,and age cohort, and the EMA is changing its position, as the evidence accumulates... And that my friend is called Science.

 

[oldgroaner]

My my that's the new one karma

This post is aimed at Flecc and Flecc alone, I, m not interested in entering discussion with OG or Jonathon Agnew thank you very much. So neither of you reply. Thank you.
Very good post Flecc and well explained, with good points. However many of them, in fact most, could be used as justification of our current roll out policy.
You say the prime objective was to save the NHS over saving lives. First of all they are just about the same thing, look up the NHS directives, and secondly the main reason they went with single jab delay was to save more lives. Your assumption is the delay will be maintained, as I tried to explain the other day, the 12 week delay can not be maintained to the end for logistic reasons. (If we are trying to get jabs in arms ASAP)
What we will see, as we look back, is a long delay initially to encompass the very group you wish to protect fast (rightly). (ie the over 80's),for whom we have already seen a staggering, and the largest, decline in deaths. As we work toward the younger groups it will be the highest risk groups all getting their second jabs first.?? Yet, the single jab has already proved its worth. The delay will start to shorten, as we progress down through the age groups.
I really don't understand this insistence extended delay won't work when it has already been shown to be doing so.
Personally don't care if Boris did make the decision, (he didn't tho for reasons already explained) because its working.??
It is only OG and Jonathon Agnew I, m not interested in speaking to. They both insult or make massive presumptions. (Hope that doesn't break any rules)

Actually I'm not interested in discussions with someone who comes on here and assumes ownership of the thread as you have, so here is a helpful suggestion
Block me, and then you will remain blissfully free of reading my posts.
I shall retain the favour as I don't care for your attitude either, too quick to take offence for me, especially straight from the off. Not good etiquette when you are a stranger to the discussion.

 

[Zlatan]

Those statistics are , even if correct, meaningless. .. The Germans and the French were not jabbing the older cohorts with AZ, and had not gone down to the younger age groups yet. Mind you if they forwarded some of their 5M ,to us we would happily use them We have a younger population profile.. But now the Germans will vaccinate the older folk with AZ, so that stockpile will diminish.
The statistic which does matter is the daily new infection rate,and the cumulative death rate per million, and in neither statistic does the UK feature well.
The Germans,the French and the Irish will use the EMA recommendations regarding duration between jabs,and age cohort, and the EMA is changing its position, as the evidence accumulates... And that my friend is called Science.

Danidl
I suggest you go back to post 92170 and have a good read of the link. It's a long article, you haven't had time to read it.
Should be compulsory reading for anyone commenting on vaccines. Its not political or biased. Read it. The figures I quoted about uptake were from data this morning. I, ll find it.
If you read the article you will realise EU has had 2 major stumbling blocks. Big pharma countries suspected there would be low uptake accross much of EU, combine that with EU insistence of low price yet high accountability and Pharma were bound to concentrate efforts elsewhere. UK, Israel and USA to a lesser extent perhaps, were willing to pay whatever the price was and (perhaps wrongly, time will tell) forego accountability.
Read the article and wake up. EU is behind in vaccine race, will remain so and may never catch up but console yourself with the fact all done for right reasons. Accountability and price.

 

[oldgroaner]

We have partial agreement in that the delay will be shortened, but that isn't only for logistical reasons. It's just been announced that there will be a doubling of the vaccination rate with half the doses going to second jabs and I see this as an admission that the 12/14 week delay policy was far from ideal.

I still don't trust everything we are being told and view the switch from quoting infection rates to quoting hospitalisation rates as simply expedience to make the numbers look better. Hospitalisation rates can fall for many reasons, not least the dramatic decline in the infection rate.
.

And of course while we are in lockdown the general risk level makes the extended delay less viable too
Rather appropriately the 12 week gap on the jabs we have expires on April 1st!

 

[Zlatan]

For Danidl

From the article. (not my font size, apologies)
I do suggest we all read the article. It isn't pushing UK as some vaccine saviour, simply explaining mechanics and politics behind the vaccine, which is proving to be equally important as the science behind them.

 

[flecc]

How Europe fell behind on vaccines

The EU secured some of the lowest prices in the world. At what cost?

www.politico.eu

Very good explanation of vaccine story so far.
Flecc
Serious question.
If EU citizens (not MEPs) decide Von Leyen is responsible for vaccine in EU and they want to vote her out, is there a mechanism to get her out? (purely hypothetical of course).

Of course not, as a Commission member she is in an executive position subject to severe limits as you already know.

There is no EU mechanism to remove her, there is a mechanism to prevent her acting and that is that the European Parliament can and often does overrule the Commission. That is the safeguard while Europe is still fragmented into diverse countries.

But like all governance it's a very imperfect system and we know all about that with our UK governments, especially in recent decades.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Those statistics are , even if correct, meaningless. .. The Germans and the French were not jabbing the older cohorts with AZ, and had not gone down to the younger age groups yet. Mind you if they forwarded some of their 5M ,to us we would happily use them We have a younger population profile.. But now the Germans will vaccinate the older folk with AZ, so that stockpile will diminish.
The statistic which does matter is the daily new infection rate,and the cumulative death rate per million, and in neither statistic does the UK feature well.
The Germans,the French and the Irish will use the EMA recommendations regarding duration between jabs,and age cohort, and the EMA is changing its position, as the evidence accumulates... And that my friend is called Science.

"Science?
We've had enough of Science!
What has Science ever done for us?"
Mention Science on here and see where it gets you!
They treat you like that Corbyn fella!