Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

it’s just a case of utilising available capacity to the full.

By almost no-one getting a full vaccine dose so only getting 52% protection on Pfizer's own evidence, then after 21 days that possibly declining continuously week by week until the second jab with no-one knowing if 12 weeks will be too late to have any protection left or sustained.

And you believe that's clever?

I don't, I believe 90% protection by giving a full single dose is better. It's far easier to administer and avoids the difficulty of compatibility with any other vaccines for second doses. After all, those waiting longer for their full dose will be at minority risk of infection meanwhile and will be younger than those preceding so less at risk anyway.

But of course I have the advantage of having paused and thought this through, something this government patently doesn't do as its year long constant changes of mind shows only too clearly.
.

 

[Danidl]

SOME science say 2 jabs 21 days apart. England’s Chief and Deputy Chief Medical Officers say it’s acceptable to extend the 21 day interval for the greater good of getting some level of protection which prevents serious complications into people.

My choice is to go with JVT, I think he talks a great deal of sense. You may choose to become someone else. That’s your choice, but it doesn’t make it the correct course of action.

Your track record is not brilliant on this topic. Which group would you bet on?. The team who spent 9 months intense work with access to immunoassay on an hourly basis and whose results were used to satisfy the EMA ,the UK equivalent, the FDA or the guys who have had a few weeks engagement. ?
The choice of the word "SOME" is pure Trump ,it equates equivalence between informed expert opinion and non informed popular ideas on the spurious grounds that " everyone is entitled to their opinion" . Well they are not!. Anyone voicing an opinion has a duty to be informed. I have no professional expertise in the life sciences, so I would listen to those who do. Without being elitist, a medical doctor or practitioner is a technologist or like a practicing chartered engineer..living on the discoveries of Scientists . A CMO is one with good PR.
I understand the desire to save lives.

 

[oldgroaner]

Great Post Jesus.

What was the football saying.
Jesus saves but Clark scores on rebound.

Can't imagine how it feels to be called thick by a crap salesman. That is a low point. Never called me thick, everything else mind.

But the problem is the pair of you are being, so why do you object to having it pointed out to you when even the government is having second thoughts on the dosage period
This is what happens when you follow the Government line
rather than the Science provided by the people who created the vaccine.
The low point is your refusing to face evidence preferring to take a gamble.

 

[oldgroaner]

I’m hoping Starmer will give us a credible alternative. If Corbyn and his muppets were still influential in Labour I’d vote Boris again, again and again and I hate him and all he stands for. That’s how bad Corbyn was.

It's quite an admission that you would vote for your bank accounts and ignore the tens of thousands who have died as a result of that election, then have the amazing audacity to turn on me when I say we should do the vaccination properly before your cretin of a leader kills thousands more.
And you would do the same again?
Pathetic

 

[flecc]

interesting idea, perhaps some companies will do that. Only problem I can see at the moment is Covid vaccine does not live long outside the fridge.

So implants just under exposed skin could be ok north of latitude 150, lucky Scandinavia and Russia et al.
.

 

[flecc]

What is heath?

Ted who took us into the EEC.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Cheer up this is in the Telegraph and clearly a tad optimistic

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Your track record is not brilliant on this topic. Which group would you bet on?. The team who spent 9 months intense work with access to immunoassay on an hourly basis and whose results were used to satisfy the EMA ,the UK equivalent, the FDA or the guys who have had a few weeks engagement. ?
The choice of the word "SOME" is pure Trump ,it equates equivalence between informed expert opinion and non informed popular ideas on the spurious grounds that " everyone is entitled to their opinion" . Well they are not!. Anyone voicing an opinion has a duty to be informed. I have no professional expertise in the life sciences, so I would listen to those who do. Without being elitist, a medical doctor or practitioner is a technologist or like a practicing chartered engineer..living on the discoveries of Scientists . A CMO is one with good PR.
I understand the desire to save lives.

Cheers, but I’ll go with JVT.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

It's quite an admission that you would vote for your bank accounts and ignore the tens of thousands who have died as a result of that election, then have the amazing audacity to turn on me when I say we should do the vaccination properly before your cretin of a leader kills thousands more.
And you would do the same again?
Pathetic

It would have been exactly the same under Corbyn, maybe worse if he’s anything like his crack-pot idiot brother.

 

[oldgroaner]

Great Post Jesus.

What was the football saying.
Jesus saves but Clark scores on rebound.

Can't imagine how it feels to be called thick by a crap salesman. That is a low point. Never called me thick, everything else mind.

Who is the "crap salesman" Zlatan? anyone I know?
And you object to being called thick? at least my description of you has the advantage of being true, especially as your much vaunted professional medical scientists are now coming round to think the 12 weeks period between injections is suspect and needs to be reconsidered.
How you and JHC never saw that as inevitable and chose to make out I was being selfish reflects badly of the standard of judgement that you and JHC employ.

That's why as the old saying goes
There are old and there are bold engineers
But there aren't many old and bold ones

 

[Jesus H Christ]

By almost no-one getting a full vaccine dose so only getting 52% protection on Pfizer's own evidence, then after 21 days that possibly declining continuously week by week until the second jab with no-one knowing if 12 weeks will be too late to have any protection left or sustained.

And you believe that's clever?

I don't, I believe 90% protection by giving a full single dose is better. It's far easier to administer and avoids the difficulty of compatibility with any other vaccines for second doses. After all, those waiting longer for their full dose will be at minority risk of infection meanwhile and will be younger than those preceding so less at risk anyway.

But of course I have the advantage of having paused and thought this through, something this government patently doesn't do as its year long constant changes of mind shows only too clearly.
.

I agree with most of that, but we are where we are. I doubt Boris Johnson has taken this decision independently. Whitty & Van-Tam wouldn’t be on board if they thought it was the wrong choice within the circumstances we face.

 

[oldgroaner]

It would have been exactly the same under Corbyn, maybe worse if he’s anything like his crack-pot idiot brother.

Really? sorry, Not buying that line for a moment, and now we have Patel ratting on your hero stating that she supported and earlier lockdown last March , at PMQ's today Starmer pointed this out and asked whether it was true and of course the chief idiot waffled and refused to confirm or deny it.

 

[oldgroaner]

I agree with most of that, but we are where we are. I doubt Boris Johnson has taken this decision independently. Whitty & Van-Tam wouldn’t be on board if they thought it was the wrong choice within the circumstances we face.

Meaning what? they don't have any idea what the situation truly is?

 

[oyster]

interesting idea, perhaps some companies will do that. Only problem I can see at the moment is Covid vaccine does not live long outside the fridge.

https://www.europeanpharmaceuticalreview.com/news/134469/new-microneedle-vaccine-shows-promise-in-pre-clinical-trials/

Yes - that is one interesting way. When last I read about it, I think I had failed to appreciate the variable release aspect properly.

If they can be applied by someone with very little training, that would also be an advantage. (I'd like to go further and suggest we each do our own but I know full well that many would not be done, and there would be no audit trail.)

Agreed about the refrigeration aspect.

The article seems to major on pain. Sorry, folks, but a bit of pain is neither here nor there. (Slightly different if someone has allodynia, CRPS, or other major issue with pain.)

 

[Zlatan]

But the problem is the pair of you are being, so why do you object to having it pointed out to you when even the government is having second thoughts on the dosage period
This is what happens when you follow the Government line
rather than the Science provided by the people who created the vaccine.
The low point is your refusing to face evidence preferring to take a gamble.

I was first on here to say government are looking into it and might modify their stance. (I guessed lower infection rate and info from Israel may change their mind)
Neither myself or anybody else defending government are saying we know more than JVT etc. That's you. I, m saying I, ll accept advice from JVT, whatever it is. I don't see any of this as political. Opposition are so weak they don't need to make it political. They don't need to win points. They need to save lives and you lot moaning moaning moaning are simply making that task more difficult.
Boris is in power, there is no opposition because even tho Starmer is OK Labour are still in disarray. We shouldn't be politicising this. It's crazy.
You hate Boris and anybody who remotely applauds, or supports, him is somehow a government apologist or thick. Like you are qualified to call anybody thick.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Who is the "crap salesman" Zlatan? anyone I know?
And you object to being called thick? at least my description of you has the advantage of being true, especially as your much vaunted professional medical scientists are now coming round to think the 12 weeks period between injections is suspect and needs to be reconsidered.
How you and JHC never saw that as inevitable and chose to make out I was being selfish reflects badly of the standard of judgement that you and JHC employ.

That's why as the old saying goes
There are old and there are bold engineers
But there aren't many old and bold ones

@oldgroaner where do you stand on Professor Jonathan Van-Tam? Credible medical professional or lieutenant in the facist plot?

Don’t allow yourself to become sidetracked when answering. Doctor or Nazi Scientist will do. Cheers.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG keeps telling us how terrible Tories are and has been doing so for 4 years but does nothing about it. He hasn't joined Volt UK to get us back in EU, he didn't even know it existed. He hasn't joined Labour or Unite or Momentum or anything else.
He hasn't realised we simply do not have an alternative. Labour destroyed itself between Blair, Momentum and Corbyn. The first took us to an illegal war on lies, the second is stuck in 1923 and the third a Marxist.
Notice Blair's son is now worth 70 million pounds. Corbyn's son is a drug dealer and his brother a covid denier.
And you now want us to support Labour. Give us a rest OG. Labour is dead and buried.
At the moment no matter what you think we are all right wing tories. The left simply does not exist. When it returns by people doing something and not just making noise let me know. In mean time I try and get behind the govt, NHS, PHE and try and have faith and try and applaud achievements.
Hiroo Onada fought on until 1974 how long are you planning to keep moaning.

"OG keeps telling us how terrible Tories are and has been doing so for 4 years but does nothing about it. He hasn't joined Volt UK to get us back in EU, he didn't even know it existed. He hasn't joined Labour or Unite or Momentum or anything else. "

This is true of course, and at the moment I am not in a position to do so, but then I haven't been trying to gloss over the scale of the catastrophe by highlighting what I regard as further folly over the partial vaccination as if it is a triumph
Why are they only now still opening up new vaccination centres?
They like many other aspects of this pathetic effort are too little and too late.

 

[oyster]

By almost no-one getting a full vaccine dose so only getting 52% protection on Pfizer's own evidence, then after 21 days that possibly declining continuously week by week until the second jab with no-one knowing if 12 weeks will be too late to have any protection left or sustained.

And you believe that's clever?

I don't, I believe 90% protection by giving a full single dose is better. It's far easier to administer and avoids the difficulty of compatibility with any other vaccines for second doses. After all, those waiting longer for their full dose will be at minority risk of infection meanwhile and will be younger than those preceding so less at risk anyway.

But of course I have the advantage of having paused and thought this through, something this government patently doesn't do as its year long constant changes of mind shows only too clearly.
.

It is difficult to assess, though. Measuring antibodies present isn't exactly a reliable technique. Numbers of them can drop dramatically but, so long as the immune system has the ability to create more, quickly, it might not matter.

The fact that the second dose results in huge numbers, quickly, might actually be the key observation. As I understand, that implies memory B-cells.

 

[oldgroaner]

I was first on here to say government are looking into it and might modify their stance. (I guessed lower infection rate and info from Israel may change their mind)
Neither myself or anybody else defending government are saying we know more than JVT etc. That's you. I, m saying I, ll accept advice from JVT, whatever it is. I don't see any of this as political. Opposition are so weak they don't need to make it political. They don't need to win points. They need to save lives and you lot moaning moaning moaning are simply making that task more difficult.
Boris is in power, there is no opposition because even tho Starmer is OK Labour are still in disarray. We shouldn't be politicising this. It's crazy.
You hate Boris and anybody who remotely applauds, or supports, him is somehow a government apologist or thick. Like you are qualified to call anybody thick.

Like you are qualified to call anybody thick. indeed I reserve the right to do that, just as you do, in so many different ways.
The problem is simply this these people do not show any evidence of the beginning of a systematic approach to eliminating this virus, they are simply not doing what is required soon enough, fast enough, or efficiently
The way to lose a war is to rely on a tactical approach when a strategic one is required and then employ tactics afterwards.

 

[Zlatan]

"OG keeps telling us how terrible Tories are and has been doing so for 4 years but does nothing about it. He hasn't joined Volt UK to get us back in EU, he didn't even know it existed. He hasn't joined Labour or Unite or Momentum or anything else. "

This is true of course, and at the moment I am not in a position to do so, but then I haven't been trying to gloss over the scale of the catastrophe by highlighting what I regard as further folly over the partial vaccination as if it is a triumph
Why are they only now still opening up new vaccination centres?
They like many other aspects of this pathetic effort are too little and too late.

Apart from your vaccine. Oh and your wife's.
And sort of like France, Germany, Belgium, Etc etc... with regards handling pandemic. But yet again you know exactly why some countries have done worse than others both before its finished and before a thorough investigation. But being objective makes me an apologist.
And BTW you called Jesus thick. You called me an apologist.
Hypocrite.
And on crap engineers, when I was a kid our bog could have flushed a dead dog down loo. Bet you had something to do with the modern ones with see you again and again flushing systems. Bet you were a pedantic hypocrite then giving us all crap bogs.
But no doubt that's Boris' fault too.
Hypocrite.