Brexit, for once some facts.

[oyster]

With the ammount of misfo flowing about they're likely having to cover their backs and behaving ethically and above board. - also if folk with weakened immune systems due to other illnesses or medication, would need screening . Not quite black & white but a graded scale of risk/benefit attached with the vaccine.

COVID-19 Vaccination Considerations for Persons with Underlying Medica

If you have an underlying medical condition, this can help you make an informed decision about getting a COVID-19 vaccination.

www.cdc.gov

Even when I worked in a hospital consent needs to given to cuff a patient to take their blood pressure, and can't administer a medication without consent either - its not like a pet where you put their pill in food to fool em.

In many ways, the need for consent is important and good. (And I come across many issues still extant day by day. [*]) But it has been held that holding out your arm for a blood draw or BP measurement is itself consenting. Though the full set of circumstances needs to be considered.

[*] Some of the people I am in contact with wish to expressly refuse certain blood tests. For example, and I am not expecting anyone to follow this, a low TSH result often ends up with a reduction in medicine dose. But that is an indirect and test they do not do the thyroid hormone blood tests FT4 and FT3 which are direct measurement. Hence some actually even write that their consent is for blood to be taken and a list of tests done but expressly NOT TSH unless FT4 and FT3 also done. Yet doctors and labs continue to ignore this, do TSH only, and then receive allegations they failed to request and get consent.

 

[Danidl]

I don't see that at all. The statement “there was no indication” is not one of awareness or knowledge. It implies that he beleieves he is competent, he checked as thoroughly as he was able and he did not find any indication to the point at which he was certain that such evidence does not exist.

If he did not find an internal warning, that suggests many possibilities including his incompetence at finding it, or his continuing belief it does not exist. And many others.

Lets see now .. his particular expertise was accounting and white collar crime. Just the kind of person you move into a a slot which should be say counter terrorism, if you don't want quick response action he was probably a good choice. His transfer to that slot was October.
As I said it takes very little to delay the transfer of intelligence from one part of a large agency to another.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

 

[Danidl]

Lets see now .. his particular expertise was accounting and white collar crime. Just the kind of person you move into a a slot which should be say counter terrorism, if you don't want quick response action he was probably a good choice. His transfer to that slot was October.
As I said it takes very little to delay the transfer of intelligence from one part of a large agency to another. Incidentally I cannot find any reference by Steven, that he said wgat you quoted.
The only reference I find is dated 8th. jan that he said there was no evidence of Antifa.. this was to quell right wing commentaries including the Texas AG, who brought the sloppy case to the Supreme Court.

 

[Zlatan]

With the ammount of misfo flowing about they're likely having to cover their backs and behaving ethically and above board. - also if folk with weakened immune systems due to other illnesses or medication, would need screening . Not quite black & white but a graded scale of risk/benefit attached with the vaccine.

COVID-19 Vaccination Considerations for Persons with Underlying Medica

If you have an underlying medical condition, this can help you make an informed decision about getting a COVID-19 vaccination.

www.cdc.gov

Even when I worked in a hospital consent needs to be granted from a patient touch and cuff a patient to take their blood pressure, and you can't administer a medication without consent either - its not like a pet where you put their pill in their food to fool em.

And next of of kin wishes fall back where consent can't be given is quite normal.

Agreed there must be checks and consent but when the mechanisms are slowing roll out to extent in France something is wrong. Suspect its double edged, the more checks put in place by medical system the less faith it seems they have in the vaccine itself.
Personally think I, m all for slipping it in my fish and chips.. As long as I get it..
Going into lockdown late or coming out early are debatable points but its without question a slow roll out will cost lives.
Who has it right? Israel or France. Personally I, d choose Israel's approach but perhaps UK's is a decent compromise somewhere between the two.
Roll out in France is causing a lot of questions. Got many friends around Perpignan grumbling and wondering why they are about last to get going.???
Don't forget Israel has vaccinated a quarter of their population. Uk around 4%, France around 1/10 of 1%...???

 

[oyster]

Lets see now .. his particular expertise was accounting and white collar crime. Just the kind of person you move into a a slot which should be say counter terrorism, if you don't want quick response action he was probably a good choice. His transfer to that slot was October.
As I said it takes very little to delay the transfer of intelligence from one part of a large agency to another.

If is is so very slow, it is rather odd that he has reached a definitive conclusion already. Wouldn't we expect at least a few months longer?

 

[Woosh]

Agreed there must be checks and consent but when the mechanism of such is slowing roll out to extent in France something is wrong.

there is nothing wrong. Their plan for vaccination is similar to ours, phase 1, those in care homes and medical staff are vaccinated first, about 2 million people, that will go up to mid February. Phase 2, 14 million people over 50 and at risk, will go next up to July. Then anyone who wants to be vaccinated, will be.
Before you can be vaccinated, you need to see a doctor and give your consent. It takes more time but it's free and France does not have the same shortage like we have here. France has ordered 200 million doses.

 

[oyster]

Agreed there must be checks and consent but when the mechanisms are slowing roll out to extent in France something is wrong. Suspect its double edged, the more checks put in place by medical system the less faith it seems they have in the vaccine itself.
Personally think I, m all for slipping it in my fish and chips.. As long as I get it..
Going into lockdown late or coming out early are debatable points but its without question a slow roll out will cost lives.
Who has it right? Israel or France. Personally I, d choose Israel's approach but perhaps UK's is a decent compromise somewhere between the two.
Roll out in France is causing a lot of questions. Got many friends around Perpignan grumbling and wondering why they are about last to get going.???

Oh - I agree - allowing consent to delay is crazy. I was both endorsing the need to greater speed and putting my hand up to say informed consent is a vital protection.

I'd argue that they should put all the necessary information "out there" - on websites, in newspapers, linked from adverts - so that everyone has a good opportunity to read and make their minds up. That should help ensure true understanding and less likely to cause issues at the point of delivery.

 

[Wicky]

But it has been held that holding out your arm for a blood draw or BP measurement is itself consenting.

Correct - as long as I didn't need to hold anyone down, I took that gesture as their unspoken consent! In my time I even took visitors BP (to allay any fears patients had) and pride my self as getting a few admitted when they had 200+ / whatever.

And in other news watched Trump at the Texas wall and he finished off with the unapologetic key words , read-between-the-lines to his militia, "Civil War"

 

[Wicky]

Who has it right? Israel or France.

Anti-vaxers went nuts over this

Man's fatal heart attack likely unlinked to vaccine he took hours before

"We share in the grief of the family," Health Ministry director-general Chezy Levy said.

www.jpost.com

 

[Zlatan]

there is nothing wrong. Their plan for vaccination is similar to ours, phase 1, those in care homes and medical staff are vaccinated first, about 2 million people, that will go up to mid February. Phase 2, 14 million people over 50 and at risk, will go next up to July. Then anyone who wants to be vaccinated, will be.
Before you can be vaccinated, you need to see a doctor and give your consent. It takes more time but it's free and France does not have the same shortage like we have here. France has ordered 200 million doses.

Think that's rather premature to say nothing wrong. French have made decision to not have mass vaccination centres (they have them for flu vaccines) and decided not to put covid vaccine on their compulsory list (which measles and I believe around 6 other infectious diseases are)..
If I were French or Belgian I, d be thinking there is something wrong.
I suspect they are assuming take up would be low and are waiting until such as us demonstrate the vaccine's efficy.. (or otherwise)
France or Israel must have it wrong. They both can't be right. One way will cost more lives.
Just ask yourself this Woosh. Given choice would you have vaccine.
A) Last month. (Israel)
B) Next month (us)
C) In 6 months (France)
Again for comparison Spain who are nearer us than France in roll out plan to have vaccinated 1.5 million by mid Feb. (ours is 13 million by then)???
Its impossible for all roll outs to be right. One is best, others are wrong and will cost lives.

 

[Wicky]

Oh - I agree - allowing consent to delay is crazy. I was both endorsing the need to greater speed and putting my hand up to say informed consent is a vital protection.

I'd argue that they should put all the necessary information "out there" - on websites, in newspapers, linked from adverts - so that everyone has a good opportunity to read and make their minds up. That should help ensure true understanding and less likely to cause issues at the point of delivery.

All good but from following various local FB groups folk are confused over if they can sit on a bench, visit a playground, move house, take driving lessons, due to vague conflicting rules & regs the let alone clinical / medical judgements.

 

[Zlatan]

Anti-vaxers went nuts over this

Man's fatal heart attack likely unlinked to vaccine he took hours before

"We share in the grief of the family," Health Ministry director-general Chezy Levy said.

www.jpost.com

But roll out speed doesn't alter that. We are either vaccinating or not.??
But you are right. It will.

 

[Wicky]

But roll out speed doesn't alter that. We are either vaccinating or not.??

"France or Israel must have it wrong. They both can't be right. One way will cost more lives. "

 

[Woosh]

Just ask yourself this Woosh. Given choice would you have vaccine.
A) Last month. (Israel)
B) Next month (us)
C) In 6 months (France)
Again for comparison Spain who are nearer us than France in roll out plan to have vaccinated 1.5 million by mid Feb. (ours is 13 million by then)???

The consent stage does not affect/delay those who want to be vaccinated.
If I am in France, consider two possibilities:
- I have been infected with Covid in the past. Waiting until April is not a big problem.
- I have not been infected with Covid in the past.
My waiting time is about the same in the UK, April.
In fact, if the take up is less than 100%, I can get vaccinated even earlier because I wouldn't have to wait to be called up like here.

 

[Wicky]

There are trials and then their are trials when a medication is tested on the wider community - hence why BNF (British National Formulary) pharmacy book is updated very very regularly - they moved from printed editions to downloadable PDF)

Dishing out the vaccine and making it up as you go along (esp playing/gambling along with dosages for political reasons esp as Boris is involved) is a work in progress... The mutated more highly infectious strain has made him him play double or quits as his political future depends on it IMHO.

 

[Zlatan]

"France or Israel must have it wrong. They both can't be right. One way will cost more lives. "

You are taking comment out of context.
The roll out speed does not alter fact that somebody by sheer statistics will at sometime have a heart attack a few hours/days after vaccine.(chap in story had history of heart attacks)
But the roll out speed (a slow one) will mean people die of covid if they are not vaccinated early enough. Over a thousand people died today, had they had vaccine 6 weeks ago how many would still be with us?
With the death rates throughout Europe every single day's delay costs lives.

 

[oyster]

There are trials and then their are trials when a medication is tested on the wider community - hence why BNF (British National Formulary) pharmacy book is updated very very regularly - they moved from printed editions to downloadable PDF)

BNF now accessible (for those who appear to be in the UK) online:

https://bnf.nice.org.uk/

Which can be very useful.

 

[Wicky]

You are taking comment out of context.
The roll out speed does not alter fact that somebody by sheer statistics will at sometime have a heart attack a few hours/days after vaccine.(chap in story had history of heart attacks)
But the roll out speed (a slow one) will mean people die of covid if they are not vaccinated early enough. Over a thousand people died today, had they had vaccine 6 weeks ago how many would still be with us?
With the death rates throughout Europe every single day's delay costs lives.

Explain logic to refusenik antivaxers... ;-)

 

[Zlatan]

There are trials and then their are trials when a medication is tested on the wider community - hence why BNF (British National Formulary) pharmacy book is updated very very regularly - they moved from printed editions to downloadable PDF)

Dishing out the vaccine and making it up as you go along (esp playing/gambling along with dosages for political reasons esp as Boris is involved) is a work in progress... The mutated more highly infectious strain has made him him play double or quits as his political future depends on it IMHO.

I, m afraid I don't see it like that. Mhra are not under Boris's jurisdiction. Neither are JVCI and first person to publicise vaccine regime, allegedly after consulting vaccine specialist, was Tony Blair. Hardly a Boris supporter.
With Tories having an 80 seat majority I can't see point in politicising BJs decisions. Besides Starmer has endorsed them.
It wasn't BJ who decided to delay 2nd dose. Believe it was JVCI. JVT said he supported it. I, ll bow to his superior knowledge.
But I see logic as to why it could be put at BJ's feet but I don't think he, or his government, are in such a weak position to have to go out on such a limb. I think you over play his hand. You are suggesting JVCI and Mhra are staking their futures and hard earned trust on a decision made by BJ essentially in contradiction to their own beliefs. Its approaching a conspiracy theory.
JVCI and Mhra would have to make decision. But who knows. World went bonkers years ago.