Brexit, for once some facts.

[vfr400]

I find that the account by BBC staff is believable:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-50713236

QUOTE

Jack was taken to his GP last Tuesday, with vomiting, diarrhoea, coughing and a fever. He had been ill for six days with what the GP had thought was a virus, but as he had not improved he was taken by ambulance to the accident and emergency unit of LGI.

His mum told The Mirror: "He kept asking to lay down. He was without a bed for four-and-a-half hours.

"He needed to go to sleep and he needed to lay down. He started falling asleep and he ended up going to sleep on a pile of coats.

"There was no bed for him in A&E and there was no bed for him on the ward, so he just had to sleep on the floor."
After his wait in the treatment room, Jack was eventually moved to a ward where he waited for five hours on a trolley before a bed was found.

He was later diagnosed with flu and tonsillitis, and discharged home the next day.

His mum praised medical staff but said: "I am frustrated about the system and the lack of beds, which I am presuming is due to a lack of funding to the NHS to deliver the services that are required."



###############

Useless GP.

How would you react if he were you son?

I still don't trust that account. she said he went to sleep on a pile of coats as if he found them on the floor. He's only lying on his own coat.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there's nothing wrong with the NHS. we can agree that the demand is too high. Maybe the flood of 600,000 plus new people coming into the UK every year might have something to do with it, the same as the housing crisis. we can also agree that it's been under-funded.

One of our forum members bled to death in a hospital at a relatively young age when completely unattended after he had been admitted to the hospital because he was choking up turds of blood. He was taken to the hospital by ambulance because his blood pressure was so low that he couldn't stand up. All they did was tuck him up in bed and then left him to it. He was completely dead hours later when they came to check on him. This is a real story of negligence and incompetence, not a fake one about a kid that was so ill that they sent him home smiling the next morning.

 

[Woosh]

Maybe the flood of 600,000 plus new people coming into the UK every year might have something to do with it,

maybe 600,000, maybe less.
The problem is however not caused by EU immigration which added only 52,000 last year while the NHS is getting worse. 4.5 million patients on official waiting list for non emergency treatment is way out of order and you can't count on the tories to fix this anytime soon.
I experience this myself, I waited 18 months for my 1 hour op. Had I known, I would have gone private. Needless to add that I will never vote for the tories again.

 

[vfr400]

maybe 600,000, maybe less.

Something like 10 million extra people came into the UK in the last 15 years, regardless of where from. That's 30 cities the size of Birmingham as it was at the start of that period. How many new hospitals did they build in that time? This is the cause of the problem. It's simple maths.

I waited a year for them to tell me I had a broken toe, and it was too late to fix it, after i told them it was broken the day after I broke it. After three months, I had x-rays done, from which my GP said everything was OK. It was after a 9 month wait to see a podiatrist, that the podiatrist told me that it was written in the record that it was broken.

 

[Woosh]

Something like 10 million extra people came into the UK in the last 15 years,

ONS puts the number of immigrants living in the UK at 7 millions + 3 millions of second generation, sons and daughters of immigrants. If you look at the 7 millions, 4 are from outside the EU, 3 from the EU. Before Maastritch, I remember when I came here, there weren't that many EU immigrants, most immigrants were from India, Pakistan, the Caribbean Islands and Africa .
Most people accept that the UK is like most parts of the world is now multi-ethnic.

 

[Danidl]

I still don't trust that account. she said he went to sleep on a pile of coats as if he found them on the floor. He's only lying on his own coat.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there's nothing wrong with the NHS. we can agree that the demand is too high. Maybe the flood of 600,000 plus new people coming into the UK every year might have something to do with it, the same as the housing crisis. we can also agree that it's been under-funded.

One of our forum members bled to death in a hospital at a relatively young age when completely unattended after he had been admitted to the hospital because he was choking up turds of blood. He was taken to the hospital by ambulance because his blood pressure was so low that he couldn't stand up. All they did was tuck him up in bed and then left him to it. He was completely dead hours later when they came to check on him. This is a real story of negligence and incompetence, not a fake one about a kid that was so ill that they sent him home smiling the next morning.

Population of the United Kingdom (2019 and historical)

Year	Population	Yearly % Change	Yearly Change	Migrants (net)	Median Age	Fertility Rate	Density (P/Km²)	Urban Pop %	Urban Population	Country's Share of World Pop	World Population	U.K. Global Rank
2019	67,530,172	0.58 %	388,488	260,650	40.1	1.84	279	82.9 %	56,012,276	0.88 %	7,713,468,100	21
2018	67,141,684	0.62 %	414,223	260,650	40.1	1.84	278	82.7 %	55,521,226	0.88 %	7,631,091,040	21
2017	66,727,461	0.65 %	429,517	260,650	40.1	1.84	276	82.5 %	55,025,421	0.88 %	7,547,858,925	21
2016	66,297,944	0.66 %	437,798	260,650	40.1	1.84	274	82.2 %	54,529,375	0.89 %	7,464,022,049	21
2015	65,860,146	0.75 %	480,068	260,046	40.0	1.87	272	82.0 %	54,035,311	0.89 %	7,379,797,139	21
2010	63,459,808	1.03 %	634,371	437,881	39.5	1.86	262	81.1 %	51,469,697	0.91 %	6,956,823,603	21
2005	60,287,954	0.46 %	272,929	198,445	38.7	1.66	249	79.9 %	48,178,255	0.92 %	6,541,907,027	21
2000	58,923,309	0.34 %	198,171	102,672	37.6	1.74	244	78.7 %	46,365,434	0.96 %	6,143,493,823	21
1995	57,932,453	0.28 %	159,612	41,089	36.5	1.78	239	78.4 %	45,427,516	1.01 %	5,744,212,979	19
1990	57,134,391	0.25 %	144,168	19,752	35.8

 

[Danidl]

The figures as quoted above suggest slightly less, and over a sufficient time scale for any necessary accomodation to be made. If one takes a 20 or 30 year window, the nature of clinical practice, can change the duration of hospital stays.. eg keyhole surgery,
The photo of the child looks very authentic to me. In particular the attempt to shield the eyes. The response you make about a rapid recovery is asinine, and demonstrates you have little current experience with children. The rate at which a child recovers and indeed sickens is very much faster than an adult.
I have wasted a few minutes attempting to follow the meandering of the reporter in your video clip. He is pathetic. What he needed to say could have been communicated in seconds.

 

[oldgroaner]

They are getting nervous in the Daily Mail
"
Tory lead PLUMMETS: Boris Johnson pleads with voters not to force Britain into a 'lost decade' of Labour rule as major poll cuts his predicted majority to 28 and raises spectre of hung parliament

What is amazing in that anyone at all votes Conservative

 

[Woosh]

I like this article in the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/11/brexit-boris-johnson-corbyn-election-result

QUOTE:

It is just about possible, for one day more at least, to imagine a Britain that is spared the lunacy of Brexit, and a Labour party no longer in thrall to Corbyn. But the combination defies electoral probability. Those of us who wish for it must be reconciled to a darker prospect. We live with the undertow of sadness and dread. We are braced for that feeling, like seeing callous hands rummaging in a private drawer where a delicate, tangled identity is stored and pulling at the threads. It feels like exile.

 

[vfr400]

The figures as quoted above suggest slightly less, and over a sufficient time scale for any necessary accomodation to be made. If one takes a 20 or 30 year window, the nature of clinical practice, can change the duration of hospital stays.. eg keyhole surgery,
The photo of the child looks very authentic to me. In particular the attempt to shield the eyes. The response you make about a rapid recovery is asinine, and demonstrates you have little current experience with children. The rate at which a child recovers and indeed sickens is very much faster than an adult.
I have wasted a few minutes attempting to follow the meandering of the reporter in your video clip. He is pathetic. What he needed to say could have been communicated in seconds.

You misunderstand. That table shows the net result. A lot of people left the UK and more died than were born. What I said was how many new people come into the UK each year. Many of them came from unstable and insecure circumstances, so are likely to have more substantial medical needs than your average lifetime resident.

As I said in my other post, the table shows that net population increased by approx 10 million in the last 15 years. I ask the question again: How many new hospitals were built during that time to cope with what's effectively 30 cities the size of Birmingham as it was?

 

[Zlatan]

You misunderstand. That table shows the net result. A lot of people left the UK and more died than were born. What I said was how many new people come into the UK each year. Many of them came from unstable and insecure circumstances, so are likely to have more substantial medical needs than your average lifetime resident.

As I said in my other post, the table shows that net population increased by approx 10 million in the last 15 years. I ask the question again: How many new hospitals were built during that time to cope with what's effectively 30 cities the size of Birmingham as it was?

I agree with your point but I think your analogy is out. Birmingham must have a population of at least a million. Its more like 10 Birminghams.
On the waiting times on NHS, I had a 6 week wait for second heart op. Had 2 operations since diagnosed 30 months ago. So absolutely no complaint. Level of treatment, care and professionalism was superb. NHS is struggling, needs more funding and perhaps a different culture in some places but it does do a fantastic job.
There are lots of positive stories. Do folk who wait years for ops actually need them?
It seems much as this lad had a poor experience he was out and about following day.
I know of a lady who waited 3 years for breast enlargement on NHS.???
Perhaps we should have a change of attitude towards our use of NHS. Have friends who are paramedics, some of the cases they get called out for I, d be embarrassed to admit to. Some use ambulance service more as a taxi to hospital.

 

[Fingers]

 

[Zlatan]

View attachment 33323

Its hiding Carrie or his American friend or his wife??

 

[flecc]

Do folk who wait years for ops actually need them?

Some do, it's a post code lottery. Only a week ago on the radio there was a man who's been waiting three and half years with greatly restricted activity for a much needed heart valve replacement. He had been scheduled a few times but each time put back for various reasons, mainly staffing or intensive care bed availability.

These delays are commonplace in many areas, London's situation is particularly bad for all NHS medical services, as I know only too well myself.
.

 

[Wicky]

You misunderstand. That table shows the net result. A lot of people left the UK and more died than were born. What I said was how many new people come into the UK each year. Many of them came from unstable and insecure circumstances, so are likely to have more substantial medical needs than your average lifetime resident.

General Election 2019: Nigel Farage's interview fact-checked

Claim: Immigration has put a "massive burden" on the NHS

Reality Check: Nigel Farage made this claim in response to Andrew Neil's questions about how he'd fill vacancies in the NHS and social care, if there were controls, after Brexit, on EU migrants coming to the UK to work. Mr Farage said, in fact, immigration had put a "massive burden" on the health service.

So, what does the evidence show?

The Migration Advisory Committee, an independent public body that advises the government, looked at this as part of its report into the effects of immigration from the European Economic Area (EEA).

It found that migrants from Europe "contribute much more to the health service and the provision of social care in financial resources and through work than they consume in services."

It said migrants from the EEA tend to be younger and healthier than the UK-born population, and consume fewer NHS services than them.

It found "no evidence that migration has reduced the quality of healthcare."

According to the Health Foundation 13.3% of the entire workforce of NHS staff in England, and 28.4% of doctors, are from outside the UK (both EU and non-EU).

 

[Zlatan]

Some do, it's a post code lottery. Only a week ago on the radio there was a man who's been waiting three and half years with greatly restricted activity for a much needed heart valve replacement. He had been scheduled a few times but each time put back for various reasons, mainly staffing or intensive care bed availability.

These delays are commonplace in many areas, London's situation is particularly bad for all NHS medical services, as I know only too well myself.
.

But isnt that part of the problem. You, ve heard about a case on radio,we know no background or even if its legitimate. I hear all time how poor our local hospital is when in reality every time any of my family have needed care its been incredible. Diagosed my wife's cancer early enough to cure it. Nursed grandson back to health after he was born with meningitis and sorted my heart out.All in last 5 years or so. Think all 3 of us would be dead if it were not for high standard of care they give. Brother in law complains all time about his bad knees and what a poor job hospital did replacing them, quite ironic when he insists on smoking, drinking and being 6 stone overweight.
Health service is fighting a loosing battle with many and not always NHS's fault.

 

[flecc]

You, ve heard about a case on radio,we know no background or even if its legitimate.

It was genuine, all the details given by the patient on a medical program.

And I know my own experiences are genuine. Like sent for an urgent X ray which was carried out immediately. Then a ten week wait for the results due to the huge backlog of X rays to be assessed by someone. Just as well I wasn't suffering from pneumonia since that wait could have killed me.

And two years with no cataract operations being carried out due to no cash allocation for them.

Portraying the genuine complaints as possibly false is very wrong, since it gives the authorities the excuse they welcome to do nothing to put things right.

In many areas the NHS is in real mess with many urgent problems and numerous patients getting a terrible service. It's not the fault of the staff, it's simply not enough staff, not enough beds and intensive care capacity and cash strapped budgets.

And it's not just in hospitals, there's the ficticious ambulance response times and weeks of delay to see a GP.
.

 

[vfr400]

General Election 2019: Nigel Farage's interview fact-checked

Claim: Immigration has put a "massive burden" on the NHS

Reality Check: Nigel Farage made this claim in response to Andrew Neil's questions about how he'd fill vacancies in the NHS and social care, if there were controls, after Brexit, on EU migrants coming to the UK to work. Mr Farage said, in fact, immigration had put a "massive burden" on the health service.

So, what does the evidence show?

The Migration Advisory Committee, an independent public body that advises the government, looked at this as part of its report into the effects of immigration from the European Economic Area (EEA).

It found that migrants from Europe "contribute much more to the health service and the provision of social care in financial resources and through work than they consume in services."

It said migrants from the EEA tend to be younger and healthier than the UK-born population, and consume fewer NHS services than them.

It found "no evidence that migration has reduced the quality of healthcare."

According to the Health Foundation 13.3% of the entire workforce of NHS staff in England, and 28.4% of doctors, are from outside the UK (both EU and non-EU).

That's just political spin. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if the population increases by 20%, you need 20% more hospitals, 20% more nurses, 20% more doctors, 20% more houses, 20% more schools, etc, no matter where they come from. We haven't had 20% more of any of those. That's why there's a strain on them.

If you want to bring immigrants into the UK, they have to be planned for and provided for, not just hope that they will be absorbed into the population without any problems.

 

[vfr400]

Population of the United Kingdom (2019 and historical)

Year	Population	Yearly % Change	Yearly Change	Migrants (net)	Median Age	Fertility Rate	Density (P/Km²)	Urban Pop %	Urban Population	Country's Share of World Pop	World Population	U.K. Global Rank
2019	67,530,172	0.58 %	388,488	260,650	40.1	1.84	279	82.9 %	56,012,276	0.88 %	7,713,468,100	21
2018	67,141,684	0.62 %	414,223	260,650	40.1	1.84	278	82.7 %	55,521,226	0.88 %	7,631,091,040	21
2017	66,727,461	0.65 %	429,517	260,650	40.1	1.84	276	82.5 %	55,025,421	0.88 %	7,547,858,925	21
2016	66,297,944	0.66 %	437,798	260,650	40.1	1.84	274	82.2 %	54,529,375	0.89 %	7,464,022,049	21
2015	65,860,146	0.75 %	480,068	260,046	40.0	1.87	272	82.0 %	54,035,311	0.89 %	7,379,797,139	21
2010	63,459,808	1.03 %	634,371	437,881	39.5	1.86	262	81.1 %	51,469,697	0.91 %	6,956,823,603	21
2005	60,287,954	0.46 %	272,929	198,445	38.7	1.66	249	79.9 %	48,178,255	0.92 %	6,541,907,027	21
2000	58,923,309	0.34 %	198,171	102,672	37.6	1.74	244	78.7 %	46,365,434	0.96 %	6,143,493,823	21
1995	57,932,453	0.28 %	159,612	41,089	36.5	1.78	239	78.4 %	45,427,516	1.01 %	5,744,212,979	19
1990	57,134,391	0.25 %	144,168	19,752	35.8

I just noticed that something doesn't add up. The fertility/reproduction rate is 1.8 per couple. so the resident population would go down if it weren't for immigration. If the population was 67 mil in 2018, that population would be less in 2019, but it increased by 388K. The only way that could happen would be if immigration was greater than 388k, yet they state it as 260K. Did around 200k former residents return from their holiday abroad?

 

[oldgroaner]

I wonder what scheme The Farage's of this world have cooked up to bet huge sums and make a fat profit on the Election?
They must be rubbing their evil slimy paws in glee at the killings they expect to make!
Any bets as to who the biggest parasite will be?

 

[oldgroaner]

WEll NOW!
Quote..Postal Votes for Labour are looking pretty grim?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1204770258327887872

What the hell is going on for her to make this claim?