Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

How on earth have you come up with that conclusion?

Its not hard OG. Macron and others were talking of refusing extension. Having extension refused before a vote on his deal would be perfect forcBJ.
It makes more sense than your convoluted explanation. Why on earth would EU renage on deals already agreed and signed by them. Boris knows full well nobody would believe that one. As it is it appears he, s the injured party. He isnt, it has made no difference at all to his position. Just a wasted day in commons for them all. Letwin and BJ are on same side.
Like I said earlier, the amendment was pointless. It achieved nothing but delaying vote on his deal and giving BJ expectation to request extension, and before his vote. Its not rocket science OG. Perhaps I, m being devious, but I bet BJ and co are way more than I am.

 

[oldgroaner]

Its not hard OG. Macron and others were talking of refusing extension. Having extension refused before a vote on his deal would be perfect forcBJ.
It makes more sense than your convoluted explanation. Why on earth would EU renage on deals already agreed and signed by them. Boris knows full well nobody would believe that one. As it is it appears he, s the injured party. He isnt, it has made no difference at all to his position. Just a wasted day in commons for them all. Letwin and BJ are on same side.

No, still not buying that it doesn't explain ERG's agreeing with BJ

 

[Woosh]

No, still not buying that it doesn't explain ERG's agreeing with BJ

the ERG can see that we won't have enough time to negotiate a comprehensive FTA with the EU by the end of next year.
They only want GATT24 with the EU. If the WAB is not amended, that's what we are heading, GATT24.

 

[Zlatan]

No, still not buying that it doesn't explain ERG's agreeing with BJ

That's fair enough OG.
ERG supporting BJ is irrelevant to amendment.
My explanation for amendment is only a theory but no other explanation benefits anyone? Please explain one that helps anyone?
BJ had nothing to lose. If they give an extension he, s exactly where he was last week. If they dont.... He, s won. We know full well he is a chancer . That amendment has come from BJ. I, d bet on it, but we, ll never have it confirmed. They all lie for a living.

 

[oyster]

Brexit Party supporters are noted for their hardcore support for British Manufacturing
Here is a selection of their paraphenalia

"A Mirror investigation proved that the official £8 baseball caps sold on the party's website turn out to come from China, while the £24.99 hoodies and £10 t-shirts are both made in Bangladesh, where textile workers are paid as little as 39p an hour.
In other news
"Party chairman Richard Tice made an unwise appearance on Al Jazeera, where he dismissed as "complete nonsense" the suggestion that Leave would be campaigning for a second referendum had they lost the first one 52% to 48%. When reminded that Farage had said in May 2016 "in a 52% to 48% referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way" Tice replied: "I didn't hear him say it."

Tsk, tsk. Brexit company. And they still seem more together than UKIP...

Ukip has moved to suspend its leader Richard Braine amid a fresh power struggle within the party.

On Saturday Braine confirmed that Ukip’s national executive committee (NEC) and the party chair, Kirstan Herriot, had attempted to oust him but questioned whether she had the authority to do so.

 

[oyster]

Demos, they say:

Value Added: How better government procurement can build a fairer Britain

A staggering 25 of the government’s 34 Strategic Suppliers (73.5%) have operations in tax havens, according to Demos report, Value Added, which explores how central government could use public procurement more effectively to bring about a fairer economy.

This new research reveals that 20 of the 25 tax-haven-linked Strategic Suppliers were awarded more than £41bn worth of government contracts between 2011 and 2017. Aggressive use of tax havens could distort competition by providing an unfair advantage to businesses that use them.
The report, based on interviews and desk-based research, also found that of the 34 Strategic Suppliers, 19 had operations in jurisdictions included on the EU’s ‘blacklist’ or ‘greylist’ of countries non-compliant with EU international standards for good tax behaviour.
https://demos.co.uk/project/value-added-how-better-government-procurement-can-build-a-fairer-britain/

The stinking pile of ordure, sometimes called our government, expects us to trust them when they don't show the slightest intent of starting to do something about this. On the contrary, they keep awarding contracts.

 

[Wicky]

Actually his sole talent appears to be making buses out of cardboard boxes allegedly.

He's moved on from cardboard aided design to Surrealism...

Boris J, after Magritte.

 

[flecc]

Like I said earlier, the amendment was pointless. It achieved nothing

Not so, it achieved preventing BJ from taking us out with No Deal by any devious means.

That was Letwin's intention and he succeeded.

Of course there were undesirable side effects as you've said, but that's true of everything with Brexit, even Brexit itself. The only way to avoid most of these harmful side effects is to scrap Brexit, remain and return to stability.

We can't undo all the damage done so far, Honda have gone, Ford have shut Bridgend, Nissan has cancelled some planned production, our steel production has taken a dent and some of the loss of international confidence we've suffered will persist.
.

 

[Danidl]

Reading again May's deal contained this
"“fundamental rights at work, occupational health and safety, fair working conditions and employment standards ... [the parties] shall ensure that the level of protection provided for by law, regulations and practices is not reduced below the level provided by the common standards applicable within the Union and the United Kingdom”. .

That paragraph is deleted in Boris Johnson's deal.
Any labour MP who votes for it should be deselected.

So Sorry 50 I had assumed , as did virtually everyone else, that the BJ Deal was identical to the May deal except for the Backstop elements. This is sharp practice at a level unacceptable in European parliamentary systems. The USA is full of these pork barrel clauses in their legislation..but it is not the norm in Europe. We would view this as an attempt to mislead parliament

 

[oyster]

Not so, it achieved preventing BJ from taking us out with No Deal by any devious means.

That was Letwin's intention and he succeeded.

Of course there were undesirable side effects as you've said, but that's true of everything with Brexit, even Brexit itself. The only way to avoid most of these harmful side effects is to scrap Brexit, remain and return to stability.

We can't undo all the damage done so far, Honda have gone, Ford have shut Bridgend, Nissan has cancelled some planned production, our steel production has taken a dent and some of the loss of international confidence we've suffered will persist.
.

Even when the companies claim, as some do, that changes were going to occur anyway (e.g. Ford Bridgend was said to be unrelated to brexit), it is very likely that any possibility of reversing the decisions, or reducing their impact by various means, simply won't stand a chance of being considered.

 

[oyster]

So they think they are above the law:

Michael Gove has disclosed the government’s Operation Yellowhammer contingency plan to handle a no-deal Brexit is being “triggered”.

The chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, in charge of preparations for a no-deal outcome, said the risk of such a scenario had increased due to MPs forcing the government to ask Brussels for another delay to the Brexit date.

 

[oyster]

He's moved on from cardboard aided design to Surrealism...

Boris J, after Magritte.

Not many laughs at the moment. Thank you.

 

[Danidl]

So they think they are above the law:

Michael Gove has disclosed the government’s Operation Yellowhammer contingency plan to handle a no-deal Brexit is being “triggered”.

The chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, in charge of preparations for a no-deal outcome, said the risk of such a scenario had increased due to MPs forcing the government to ask Brussels for another delay to the Brexit date.

In fairness , Grove must do that. The EU is caught in a bind. There has not been a request from the UKs to have an extension..an unsigned letter is not a request. Now the fact the UK side have fielded a modified WA , including the unscrutinised labour clauses , does provide evidence of bad faith.

 

[flecc]

Ford Bridgend was said to be unrelated to brexit

Such decisions were all linked to Brexit. In that Ford case the primary reason was the collapse of large diesel engine sales, particularly their production for Jaguar. But if there were no Brexit element they could have substituted with plans for the inevitable electric power plants.

Instead they decided not to and Jaguar have set up a joint electric facility with BMW in Hungary. Double the damage due to Brexit.
.

 

[flecc]

There has not been a request from the UKs to have an extension..an unsigned letter is not a request.

The EU disagree and are going ahead on the basis that they have received an extension request as it came from an official source, the cabinet office. The PM doesn't have to sign it, it can be sent or verified by a court in the event that the PM is ruled in default. It can also be sent or verified by the Speaker of the HoC, and there is no doubt that John Bercow if required would do that, and the EU know it.
.

 

[oyster]

In fairness , Grove must do that. The EU is caught in a bind. There has not been a request from the UKs to have an extension..an unsigned letter is not a request. Now the fact the UK side have fielded a modified WA , including the unscrutinised labour clauses , does provide evidence of bad faith.

The Benn Act says:

The Prime Minister must seek to obtain from the European Council an extension of the period under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union ending at 11.00pm on 31 October 2019 by sending to the President of the European Council a letter in the form set out in the Schedule to this Act requesting an extension of that period to 11.00pm on 31 January 2020 in order to debate and pass a Bill to implement the agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union, including provisions reflecting the outcome of inter-party talks as announced by the Prime Minister on 21 May 2019, and in particular the need for the United Kingdom to secure changes to the political declaration to reflect the outcome of those inter-party talks.

If the unsigned letter does NOT constitute a request, BJ has failed to comply with the Act.

If an unsigned leter DOES constitute a request, then he has requested an extension in accordance with the Act.

Not sure I am convinced either way. Perhaps the Supreme Court will express their opinion at some stage?

By the way, the Act itself says times are GMT. So all the people saying he had until 11.00 pm on Saturday were probably making a mistake.

 

[oldgroaner]

The propaganda machine is working overtime trying to create a narrative about remainers harrassing MP's

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185573085778534401

Two questions spring to mind

1. Why is he walking instead of using a car?
2. Why so many Police, who are actually obstructing the press?

 

[oldgroaner]

The Benn Act says:

The Prime Minister must seek to obtain from the European Council an extension of the period under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union ending at 11.00pm on 31 October 2019 by sending to the President of the European Council a letter in the form set out in the Schedule to this Act requesting an extension of that period to 11.00pm on 31 January 2020 in order to debate and pass a Bill to implement the agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union, including provisions reflecting the outcome of inter-party talks as announced by the Prime Minister on 21 May 2019, and in particular the need for the United Kingdom to secure changes to the political declaration to reflect the outcome of those inter-party talks.

If the unsigned letter does NOT constitute a request, BJ has failed to comply with the Act.

If an unsigned leter DOES constitute a request, then he has requested an extension in accordance with the Act.

Not sure I am convinced either way. Perhaps the Supreme Court will express their opinion at some stage?

By the way, the Act itself says times are GMT. So all the people saying he had until 11.00 pm on Saturday were probably making a mistake.

An anonymous letter does not constitute a request as no one can prove it isn't a forgery
Try cashing a Cheque without authorisation
And the act requires him to SEEK TO OBTAIN not hinder, a clear breach of the law if ever there was one.

 

[oldgroaner]

So Sorry 50 I had assumed , as did virtually everyone else, that the BJ Deal was identical to the May deal except for the Backstop elements. This is sharp practice at a level unacceptable in European parliamentary systems. The USA is full of these pork barrel clauses in their legislation..but it is not the norm in Europe. We would view this as an attempt to mislead parliament

Actually you are replying to me! but never mind

 

[Danidl]

The EU disagree and are going ahead on the basis that they have received an extension request as it came from an official source, the cabinet office. The PM doesn't have to sign it, it can be sent or verified by a court in the event that the PM is ruled in default. It can also be sent or verified by the Speaker of the HoC, and there is no doubt that John Bercow if required would do that, and the EU know it.
.

No flecc, I don't think there is any evidence from any authoritive EU source,that it will be considered. I expect that EU lawyers will be mulling this over today and tomorrow. They have a signed letter from the PM .That must take precedence over anything else. The EU tends to use an odd phrase... "In conformance with the constitutional norms" of the country.
I can see EU ambassadors discussing potential scenarios in private