Brexit, for once some facts.

[Danidl]

The mistake many who did not vote for leave - is to think people who DID vote 'leave' did it for the money or for immigration. Talking to my friends who voted leave the majority it was something far less tangible than that. Of course it's summed up by the 'take back control' but even they/we are not so stupid as to think us little people ever have 'control'. But it was along those lines.

Oh sure you can say we're all stupid - zenophobic - racist - sure - we've heard it all. But there was a hope in there. A hope that has not yet quite been completely extinguished. Though I fear it will be. But perhaps at least for a few moments it felt like the little people had won something worth winning.

I have written some 3500 posts ,and I don't believe I used those terms in any of them.
The argument about "taking back control " is actually one I have sympathy with . The error though is the UK had not lost it. Every decision of consequence in the EU was with the consent of the UK Parliament. That unfortunately is / was the lie that has been foisted on the people's of Britain, by certain politicians and newspaper magnates.
If you have been foolish, it is because you have believed this lie. .
The level of democratic accountability within the EU and previous EEC is extremely high...I am not going to reiterate it here. Other than to say you in the UK have been very badly served by the representatives you have elected to serve you in the Brussels Parliament and the European Commission.

 

[oldtom]

Funny I had to eventually find out he'd disowned her here on this forum thread as he usually finds any excuse to get his pic in the local rag.

You're welcome 'Wicky'…..and I don't charge for this public service.

Tom

 

[Danidl]

talk of fresh food shortages in case of no deal brexit lacks credibility.
Would the EU stop exporting fresh food to the UK? Totally unlikely.
It's up to HMRC to stop those lorries bringing in fresh food into Dover, Portsmouth etc. and they are not going to do that.
As far as food price is concerned, there will be inflation but in time, it will be adjusted by wage increase.

I have never suggested that there will be an EU mandated stop to food traffic into the UK, but I am suggesting that the inevitable barriers will hurt both exporters and importers. Indeed the drop in the value of sterling has already put one local factory here in Dundalk into recievership and is affecting others. . When contracts were negotiated in sterling pre Brexit, the exchange rate was a relatively stable around 74 pence to the euro, it is now close to 90. You are an intelligent person you can worj out the implications.
The other concern is that foodstuffs are perishable and just in time transit logistics are well established. Any distruption causes spoilage. The tomatoes and lettuce coming up from Malaga by ro ro ferries to Manchesters Tesco today affect Mondays school lunch.
Everybody knows that Customs involves delays. Everybody knows that delays create costs, Everybody knows that part of" taking control" means policing borders. So where is the mystery?.

 

[Woosh]

you can worj out the implications

the BoE and other experts did that after the referendum and expected inflation to peak at 3%. A WTO brexit would cause about 3% inflation for 2-3 years.

 

[Danidl]

OK Danidl - you sound like a reasonable person. But. The 'but' is you also sound like somebody who tends to see the glass half-empty rather than half full. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. But it strikes me from your overall tone that's how you see 'Brexit'. As do many many others I might add.

But so what that we 'can't feed ourselves'. We don't want to be self-sufficient. That's a fools game. Why humans are so prosperous - is because we trade. We exchange skills for goods. This is how come the global economy has pulled something like 85% of the world's population out of poverty in the past 40 years. We trade - trade between countries and people - without tariffs if possible. We will get our food from other places. Or we will pay a bit more for a while getting food from the EU. We will find a way around this problem. That is seeing the glass half-full.

Actually I see the Brexit debacle as just a totally empty glass . The notion that one would create problems which currently do not exist, and then be proud of having worked half baked solutions to them strikes me as assine.
That is not to say that I believe the EU to be a perfect solution not in need of reform. There are a number of absurdities in it, one of the most blatant being the pilgrimages between Brussels and Luxembourg . But those types of problem can be sorted out by working through them not walking away.

 

[oldgroaner]

And you wonder why so many people voted leave. Because this is the attitude. That we are 'propaganda'. F888 Y** comes to mind.

So you voted leave and repeat pretty much word for word vote leave propaganda?
Sorry but you really need a better argument than that, and we have heard the victim card played far too often
No one is saying that you are"propaganda"
Or that you didn't feel you had good reason to vote leave, but to come on without any facts to support your decision is not making brexit seem like a good decision

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

 

[Woosh]

. The notion that one would create problems which currently do not exist, and then be proud of having worked half baked solutions to them strikes me as assine.

I see the battle of brexit as a proper existential test for both the UK and the EU. It is a test because it can be cancelled or reversed in a short time.
There are plenty of people who dream of a US of E and equally as many who see that as the wrong destination.

 

[oldtom]

We seem to have a morning drinker a recent acquisition to the active cast of correspondents to this thread. I'm struck by the similarity in tone perceptible in the barrage of unhelpful contributions from the recently invented new recruit, Jennifer Jenkins, and I note similarities with another contributor of recent times. At this moment, I can't put my finger on whom that is though.

Surely no-one would be so ignominious as to repeat losing arguments time and again only to decide that those same losing arguments will somehow gain credence if more names are appended to them?

I suppose it's possible as the fans of 'Brexit' are well acquainted with lies and the well-known basis upon which fascist leaders gain then abuse power, 'The big Lie', infamously described by Joseph Goebbels in the 20th century.

Perhaps we can look forward to an explanation from the prodigious ramblings output of Ms. Jenkins, exactly how, when and where the alleged benefits for the British people will manifest themselves, though I shan't hold my breath!

Tom

 

[Jennifer Jenkins]

talk of fresh food shortages in case of no deal brexit lacks credibility.
Would the EU stop exporting fresh food to the UK? Totally unlikely.
It's up to HMRC to stop those lorries bringing in fresh food into Dover, Portsmouth etc. and they are not going to do that.
As far as food price is concerned, there will be inflation but in time, it will be adjusted by wage increase.

We can get 'fresh' food from as far away as New Zealand - refrigerated transport and all that. Plus just wait for all the wine we can get without those EU tariffs. Hic.

 

[Jennifer Jenkins]

We seem to have a morning drinker a recent acquisition to the active cast of correspondents to this thread. I'm struck by the similarity in tone perceptible in the barrage of unhelpful contributions from the recently invented new recruit, Jennifer Jenkins, and I note similarities with another contributor of recent times. At this moment, I can't put my finger on whom that is though.

Surely no-one would be so ignominious as to repeat losing arguments time and again only to decide that those same losing arguments will somehow gain credence if more names are appended to them?

I suppose it's possible as the fans of 'Brexit' are well acquainted with lies and the well-known basis upon which fascist leaders gain then abuse power, 'The big Lie', was infamously described by Joseph Goebbels in the 20th century.

Perhaps we can look forward to an explanation from the prodigious ramblings output of Ms. Jenkins, exactly how, when and where the alleged benefits for the British people will manifest themselves, though I shan't hold my breath!

Tom

Never touch a drop before 10am. Rules is rules.

 

[flecc]

We trade - trade between countries and people - without tariffs if possible. We will get our food from other places. Or we will pay a bit more for a while getting food from the EU.

But why? Why pay more for no reason?

We can already trade with the whole world, one of the many Brexit lies is that the EU stops us doing that. It does not.

Go anywhere in the world and you see German products, the likes of Mercedes, Bosch, Siemens et al. Germany is an EU member and manages it, so we could too, if we were good enough.

Our shortfall of such business shows we obviously are not, so what makes you think we will be good enough out of the EU and without its favourable market?

It can't be our mass produced manufactures, they are virtually all foreign. Our car industry is Japanese, Indian, Chinese and French for example. We can't sell those cars into markets those companies already supply from elsewhere, they wouldn't let us and even if we could, the profits would still be theirs.

So I say to you what I've said in here before to all the Leavers. If we are good enough to sell to the wider world on WTO terms or EU agreements as Germany and some other EU countries do so successfully now, let's do it first to show we can, then if successful, leave the EU knowing we can.

Isn't that far more sensible than a leap into the dark?
.

 

[Woosh]

We can get 'fresh' food from as far away as New Zealand - refrigerated transport and all that. Plus just wait for all the wine we can get without those EU tariffs. Hic.

The Pound will be priced to take into account the cost of brexit. I think a 10% devaluation of the Pound is likely. It does not affect importers like myself much because we simply put up our prices but these increases will feed through as additional inflation which will be compensated for by wage increases.

 

[Jennifer Jenkins]

Great stuff here from J Paxman on the situation:

"Outside the Palace of Westminster on Thursday I saw the driver of a massive cement lorry wind down his window to bellow in an angry Geordie voice. His target? A rent-a-mob of anti-Brexitdemonstrators.

‘It’s about time you learned to respect the decision of the working class!’ he roared.

What can he have made of the farce now engulfing Parliament itself? Or of professional politicians united in their conviction that when it comes to the most momentous decision to face us since the Second World War, they can agree precisely nothing?

The outcome of the 2016 referendum was clear.

By a margin of more than one million votes, the British people said they wanted to leave the EU. Yet more than two years later we are in paralysis, faced with a piece of paper that no one wants – and with seemingly no way forward other than to take the Prime Minister’s Deal."

The rest here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6475593/JEREMY-PAXMAN-dog-won-better-Brexit-deal-forelock-tugging-drones.html

 

[Jennifer Jenkins]

But why? Why pay more for no reason?

We can already trade with the whole world, one of the many Brexit lies is that the EU stops us doing that. It does not.

Go anywhere in the world and you see German products, the likes of Mercedes, Bosch, Siemens et al. Germany is an EU member and manages it, so we could too, if we were good enough.

Our shortfall of such business shows we obviously are not, so what makes you think we will be good enough out of the EU and without its favourable market?

It can't be our mass produced manufactures, they are virtually all foreign. Our car industry is Japanese, Indian, Chinese and French for example. We can't sell those cars into markets those companies already supply from elsewhere, they wouldn't let us and even if we could, the profits would still be theirs.

So I say to you what I've said in here before to all the Leavers. If we are good enough to sell to the wider world on WTO terms as Germany and some other EU countries do so successfully now, let's do it first to show we can, then if successful, leave the EU then knowing we can.

Isn't that far more sensible than a leap into the dark?
.

Flecc - your mind is SO made up! There is not a chink of possibility that you could be wrong in your analysis. We've not even left and you're already SO sure of what you say. We don't sell the same products as the Germans for a start. And we sure build airports better than the Germans (look up Berlin Brandenburg fiasco if you want to see how the Germans f*** things up sometimes). Maybe we can sell them project management. Either way....

As for a 'leap into the dark' - some of the best things I've ever done (including the blind date with my husband) - were a 'leap into the dark'. Look.. we don't know. But you - apparently - do.

 

[Jennifer Jenkins]

The Pound will be priced to take into account the cost of brexit. I think a 10% devaluation of the Pound is likely. It does not affect importers like myself much because we simply put up our prices but these increases will feed through as additional inflation which will be compensated for by wage increases.

You think. But you don't know! Maybe it will drop by another 10%. Our exporters will love that - and sure it will cost more to buy stuff. And? As usual - winners and losers. Who f*****g knows what the balance will be when the dust settles. Fact is you're alive in one of the most wealthy countries in the world at the most wealthy time ever in the existence of mankind. But. Some people just want something to be upset about. Right?

 

[oldtom]

Yawn! Anybody got anything interesting or new to add to the thread?

Clearly, the prolific Sunday am poster, Ms Jenkins, is bereft of anything new and chooses to add lots of column inches, reprising the same old tosh we have heard (and ridiculed) so often before.

Tom

 

[Jennifer Jenkins]

Yawn! Anybody got anything interesting or new to add to the thread?

Clearly, the prolific Sunday am poster, Ms Jenkins, is bereft of anything new and chooses to add lots of column inches, reprising the same old tosh we have heard (and ridiculed) so often before.

Tom

Oh cheer up for goodness sake. It's Christmas in a few weeks. Pour yourself a drink and watch something on the tele.

 

[Zlatan]

You think. But you don't know! Maybe it will drop by another 10%. Our exporters will love that - and sure it will cost more to buy stuff. And? As usual - winners and losers. Who f*****g knows what the balance will be when the dust settles. Fact is you're alive in one of the most wealthy countries in the world at the most wealthy time ever in the existence of mankind. But. Some people just want something to be upset about. Right?

I advise you not to make it yourself Jennifer .Totally agree with you but folk are blinkered, misinformed and rude on here.
There are lots who agree with you...

 

[flecc]

Look.. we don't know. But you - apparently - do.

There's truth in that, I'm old enough to have lived through the huge decline before we joined with Europe, when we lost virtually all of our industries and then much of our commerce. That ended up with us teetering on the edge of bankruptcy and the IMF having to come in and run our economy for much of the decade.

Joining into Europe in that same decade put us back on track and we've largely recovered since, albeit with other's manufacturing.

Do you really think our politicians and business leaders now are any better than those before we joined? I think they are far worse, today's politicians can't even knock up a Brexit deal, so all the evidence is that they will fail.

However, I'm not trading on my knowing, so I refer you back to what I posted but you ignored. If we are good enough to sell to the wider world as Germany and some other EU members do, lets do it first, then leave knowing we can be successful.

As for your suggestion of selling other countries project management, that must be a bad joke. We hold world records for delayed, over budget and unfinished projects.
.

 

[Danidl]

You think. But you don't know! Maybe it will drop by another 10%. Our exporters will love that - and sure it will cost more to buy stuff. And? As usual - winners and losers. Who f*****g knows what the balance will be when the dust settles. Fact is you're alive in one of the most wealthy countries in the world at the most wealthy time ever in the existence of mankind. But. Some people just want something to be upset about. Right?

I am happy to agree with the proposition that we are living in what is probably the most golden age....
Reflect why poverty has reduced ,and thank China for it. Their brutal, by our standards 1 child policy stabilised their population base, . The United States of China ,for that is what it is.. with its single market, a single Parliament....
Next it will the United States of India , what then for an island isolated in the NW of Europe, deliberately and by its inhabitants?. Withdrawing from its neighbours, by the narrowest of margins in a dishonest poll?.