Brexit, for once some facts.

[Jennifer Jenkins]

May’s deal is already dead,Grieve has blocked no deal,Rudd’s Norway plus looks less control and more costly,involvement of the ECJ.....so where do we go after next Tuesday?
The 3 biggest donors of Vote Leave are fed up with what the Tories have done with Brexit,they think their £5million was a waste,they reckon that Remain is the best option now.
KudosDave.

The mistake many who did not vote for leave - is to think people who DID vote 'leave' did it for the money or for immigration. Talking to my friends who voted leave the majority it was something far less tangible than that. Of course it's summed up by the 'take back control' but even they/we are not so stupid as to think us little people ever have 'control'. But it was along those lines.

Oh sure you can say we're all stupid - zenophobic - racist - sure - we've heard it all. But there was a hope in there. A hope that has not yet quite been completely extinguished. Though I fear it will be. But perhaps at least for a few moments it felt like the little people had won something worth winning.

 

[Wicky]

Another one quits - who knew?View attachment 28071

Never heard of him? Neither had I until I read this:

another-minister-quits-over-brexit-whos-next

There's a saying…..something to do with sinking ships and rats…?

Tom

Quince is my Tory MP - A kind of less offensive pudgier version of Alan B'stard who up until recently doted on T M - but of late had got splinters in his bot from fence sitting. Funny I had to eventually find out he'd disowned her here on this forum thread as he usually finds any excuse to get his pic in the local rag.

 

[oldgroaner]

Right. What's all the fuss about (pause for incoming): ‘No deal’ merely means trading on WTO terms. Trade on WTO terms is the norm. 90 per cent of world trade is done on WTO terms. 60 per cent and rising of our trade with other countries is done on WTO terms. Our exports to the countries we trade with on WTO terms have grown three times as fast as our exports to the EU’s Single Market. Our businesses trading with the USA trade on WTO terms and we run a trade surplus with the USA. Our businesses trading with the EU trade on its Single Market terms and we run a trade deficit with the EU. WTO rules give us full access to the EU’s Single Market. Access does not require membership. It would be illegal for the EU to restrict our access to the Single Market.

Sorry but that simply isn't a true statement is it?
The leader of the WTO said this
"
WTO head says leaving EU would cost UK consumers £9bn a year
Roberto Azevedo says Britain would be forced to renegotiate trade deals in move akin to joining WTO from scratch
WTO rules do not give us access to the single market without additional tariffs applied by the EU

 

[Jennifer Jenkins]

We have been from Day one, and still haven't heard of a single reason to expect Brexit will be beneficial, unless you can propose something?

You've obviously not been listening. If after all this you can not come up with one single reason the leave side have given for leaving - then I can be of no help to you.

 

[Jennifer Jenkins]

Sorry but that simply isn't a true statement is it?
The leader of the WTO said this
"
WTO head says leaving EU would cost UK consumers £9bn a year
Roberto Azevedo says Britain would be forced to renegotiate trade deals in move akin to joining WTO from scratch
WTO rules do not give us access to the single market without additional tariffs applied by the EU

Small change. £9B? Ha. We'll get that back from what we don't have to pay the EU to stay in their club.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Just a thought: As British politicians try to tie us back into Brussels, armoured vehicles speed through Paris, displaying the EU flag.

What does Brussels have to do with Paris?

They are stopping hooligans from burning central Paris to the ground, is that a bad thing? See above, all French military vehicles display the EU flag.

 

[Jennifer Jenkins]

How do you judge if someone is malnourished? I might be wrong but I don't think victims need to look like the skeletal figures we saw in Belsen and the other nazi death camps, to be diagnosed as malnourished.

Perhaps you only consider someone to be in need of dietary assistance if they look like those Belsen survivors or display signs of rickets?

The food banks around the country are performing a great job in protecting poor folk from the worst ravages of poor diet and income so diminished that they are desperately impoverished. The UN inspector who recently performed a fact-finding mission in the UK was shocked by what he discovered in that regard.

Tom

That was hilarious huh? That UN 'inspector' came up with I think 30% of us living in poverty! AND PEOPLE BELIEVE THIS CRAP. Its like Health England saying 33% of our kids are obese. ALSO *******!

Whatever.

 

[oldgroaner]

Darn I'm on a roll now.

Red colour - lest we forget - constituencies that voted leave:

View attachment 28076

And how is this significant now when the full list of problems Brexit causes means people should be allowed to think again?
If you ordered a new car , waited two years and when it was delivered it was unreliable, the brakes didn't work, the engine was obviously second hand and not what you ordered, you wouldn't want to go ahead and accept this useless undesirable rip off, would you?
Just because you signed the order two years previously?
You would be well within your rights to tell the dealer no thank you.

 

[Jennifer Jenkins]

What does Brussels have to do with Paris?

They are stopping hooligans from burning central Paris to the ground, is that a bad thing? See above, all French military vehicles display the EU flag.

Yeah - like I said - it was just a thought.

 

[Jennifer Jenkins]

And how is this significant now when the full list of problems Brexit causes means people should be allowed to think again?
If you ordered a new car , waited two years and when it was delivered it was unreliable, the brakes didn't work, the engine was obviously second hand and not what you ordered, you wouldn't want to go ahead and accept this useless undesirable rip off, would you?
Just because you signed the order two years previously?
You would be well within your rights to tell the dealer no thank you.

Nice analogy. One that fits your already-established premise of course.

It ain't over yet. We still don't know what kind of Brexit will be delivered. I am hoping for the one we voted for. You know. One where we leave the EU. Not that I have much hope left. But I am optimistic by nature.

 

[oldgroaner]

That was hilarious huh? That UN 'inspector' came up with I think 30% of us living in poverty! AND PEOPLE BELIEVE THIS CRAP. Its like Health England saying 33% of our kids are obese. ALSO *******!

Whatever.

Sorry but you are not making sense , are you saying you are wiser than a trained UN Inspector?

By the way this post is actually off topic, have you anything factual about Brexit being advantageous to offer?

So far your posts are pretty much typical of the propaganda we see encounter from time to time, nothing new and not original, nor cogent to the debate.

 

[flecc]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/08/paris-police-flood-streets-gilets-jaunes

Reasonably balanced - extracts:

Small groups of gilets jaunes from the extremist fringe of the grassroots movement

determined not to let casseurs – vandals and hooligans – have their way again

young men dressed in black and wearing masks and scarves

Nothing to do with the original protest against increased petrol tax on diesel. The right wing Republicans are calling for a referendum, well now what a surprise, who is their consultant on that one? Marine le Pen demanding the president to demission, dissolve parliament and general elections... <yawn>

Interesting map on TV yesterday, imagine France divided into three vertically, the centre region being the yellow vest area. No public transport. Little to no industry. Rural desertification.

Nothing new in this AK, our far worse 2011 nation wide riots were protests at all the things that people were upset about. An unholy alliance of the poor and deprived with the ill treated and the politically angry, plus those just taking advantage of the chaos to help themselves to what they couldn't afford.

But the root that triggers these events is always genuine, so they can only be prevented by dealing with the root problem. Macron has belatedly given way now, too late, he should have been more politically astute in the first place. Fewer self publicising trips abroad and more attention at home would have been wiser.
.

 

[Jennifer Jenkins]

Don't worry we already have a head start from 11pm Friday March 29th come what may over our old foe... ;-)

Cool plane!

 

[flecc]

Are the BBC news staff all having the weekend off? - They seem to have gone unusually quiet about 'Brexit' matters suddenly.

Tom

No, they seem to have been popping up more on Radio 4 recently.
.

 

[Jennifer Jenkins]

Sorry but you are not making sense , are you saying you are wiser than a trained UN Inspector?

By the way this post is actually off topic, have you anything factual about Brexit being advantageous to offer?

So far your posts are pretty much typical of the propaganda we see encounter from time to time, nothing new and not original, nor cogent to the debate.

And you wonder why so many people voted leave. Because this is the attitude. That we are 'propaganda'. F888 Y** comes to mind.

 

[flecc]

Darn I'm on a roll now.

Red colour - lest we forget - constituencies that voted leave:

View attachment 28076

That map has reversed now, the latest version posted in here recently is predominantly blue. The people have changed their minds, at least the ones who think have.
.

 

[Woosh]

Right. What's all the fuss about (pause for incoming): ‘No deal’ merely means trading on WTO terms. Trade on WTO terms is the norm. 90 per cent of world trade is done on WTO terms. 60 per cent and rising of our trade with other countries is done on WTO terms. Our exports to the countries we trade with on WTO terms have grown three times as fast as our exports to the EU’s Single Market. Our businesses trading with the USA trade on WTO terms and we run a trade surplus with the USA. Our businesses trading with the EU trade on its Single Market terms and we run a trade deficit with the EU. WTO rules give us full access to the EU’s Single Market. Access does not require membership. It would be illegal for the EU to restrict our access to the Single Market.

I don't think trade will increase much faster in or out of the EU. Growth inside or outside the EU benefits trade in the same way, whether we leave or remain.
Most of our trade with countries outside the EU are already on more favourable terms than general WTO tariffs.
Going to WTO in the future will immediately reduce our exports to the EU. The most affected are cars.

 

[flecc]

But perhaps at least for a few moments it felt like the little people had won something worth winning.

Yes, a bit like those two or three pound wins on the lottery.
.

 

[Danidl]

'Dependence'? Huh? Just because we currently get 29% from there does not mean we are 'dependent'! Doh. It's that sort of blinkered thinking that got us here in the first place. Just because I get 100% of my food from the local shop does not mean I will die of hunger if it closes down - I WILL SHOP SOMEWHERE ELSE!!

Whatever.

Never mind.

But you do have to get it from somewhere. The UK cannot realistically feed itself. It didn't during WW2 ,it got significant amounts from Ireland and it still does now. You are correct that with money you can get everything available,but convienance matters. Getting those foodstuffs from further afield means obviously that they are less fresh,and cost more in transport costs. Even if you personally have the money that the delays are only a minor inconvenience,there are numbers of your fellow countrymen for whom it will matter much more.
Carrying on your analogy of local shops,there are many elderly people who do in fact starve when the local CoOp closes, and they have not the energy or stamina to trunge via inadequate public transport to the big shopping malls.
You are coming late to this party as it were, but better late than never. Many of the arguments you are presenting have been trashed out before.

 

[Jennifer Jenkins]

But you do have to get it from somewhere. The UK cannot realistically feed itself. It didn't during WW2 ,it got significant amounts from Ireland and it still does now. You are correct that with money you can get everything available,but convienance matters. Getting those foodstuffs from further afield means obviously that they are less fresh,and cost more in transport costs. Even if you personally have the money that the delays are only a minor inconvenience,there are numbers of your fellow countrymen for whom it will matter much more.
Carrying on your analogy of local shops,there are many elderly people who do in fact starve when the local CoOp closes, and they have not the energy or stamina to trunge via inadequate public transport to the big shopping malls.
You are coming late to this party as it were, but better late than never. Many of the arguments you are presenting have been trashed out before.

OK Danidl - you sound like a reasonable person. But. The 'but' is you also sound like somebody who tends to see the glass half-empty rather than half full. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. But it strikes me from your overall tone that's how you see 'Brexit'. As do many many others I might add.

But so what that we 'can't feed ourselves'. We don't want to be self-sufficient. That's a fools game. Why humans are so prosperous - is because we trade. We exchange skills for goods. This is how come the global economy has pulled something like 85% of the world's population out of poverty in the past 40 years. We trade - trade between countries and people - without tariffs if possible. We will get our food from other places. Or we will pay a bit more for a while getting food from the EU. We will find a way around this problem. That is seeing the glass half-full.

 

[Woosh]

But you do have to get it from somewhere.

talk of fresh food shortages in case of no deal brexit lacks credibility.
Would the EU stop exporting fresh food to the UK? Totally unlikely.
It's up to HMRC to stop those lorries bringing in fresh food into Dover, Portsmouth etc. and they are not going to do that.
As far as food price is concerned, there will be inflation but in time, it will be adjusted by wage increase.