Brexit, for once some facts.

flecc

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If UKIP had not got itself in such a mess it would have been in a position to exploit the current situation and a lot may move towards it.
That's true enough.

I don't agree with the rest of your post though, leaving the EU after 44 years of membership and the immense complexities of doing so was a momentous decision.

Thus it was unlike any other election, all easily reversible, so one that should have a crystal clear decision by a large majority of the people. What actually happened was that the public showed they just didn't know what to think, and once again, I'd have said the same the other way.
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anotherkiwi

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Thank-you that is correct now - there were TWO !

(you could of course have mentioned that to begin with, but it wouldn`t have suited your narrative)
My narrative that both those referendums were about ratifying an EU treaty and never about voting to stay or to leave?
 

gray198

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That's true enough.

I don't agree with the rest of your post though, leaving the EU after 44 years of membership and the immense complexities of doing so was a momentous decision.

Thus it was unlike any other election, all easily reversible, so one that should have a crystal clear decision by a large majority of the people. What actually happened was that the public showed they just didn't know what to think, and once again, I'd have said the same the other way.
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I do agree with you. It was never going to be easy, but it could have been done if all the politicians had honoured their promises and got behind the PM from the start. Instead they have tried to disrupt it all the way. They are put there to represent the electorate (not themselves). I feel certain that if we'd had a united approach we could be in a much stronger position. So I don't think it is the fault of the people who voted,
It's the fault of people like Dominic Grieve Anna Soubry Kier Starmer etc. to name a few. I think it will take the country years to restore any faith in out system , and they wonder why young people don't vote
 
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Danidl

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Pity you can`t get your facts right, the Irish have been shafted Twice via Referendums!


To the surprise of the Irish government and the other EU member states, Irish voters rejected the Treaty of Nice in June 2001.

Then...

The first referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon held on 12 June 2008 was rejected by the Irish electorate, by a margin of 53.4% to 46.6%, with a turnout of 53%. The second referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon held on 2 October 2009 and the proposal was approved by 67.1% to 32.9%, with a turnout of 59%.





    • Asking the Irish to vote again on the Lisbon treaty is arrogant, insulting and undemocratic
      Sat 13 Dec 2008 16.00 GMT

In June this year, 53.4% of Irish voters rejected the Lisbon treaty, against 46.6% who supported it (giving the "No" camp a "sweeping victory" similar to Obama's). Yet now the Irish will be asked to vote again. EU officials' behind-doors deal to force a second referendum in Ireland reveals their utter contempt for Irish voters, and for democracy itself. It is an historic sucker punch against the sovereignty of the people.

As soon as the Irish people's ballots were counted in June, their rejection of Lisbon was treated as the "wrong" answer, as if they had been taking part in a multiple-choice maths exam and had failed to work out that 2+2=4. Now, they will be given a chance to sit the exam again, "until [they] come up with the right answer," says George Galloway, attacking EU elitism. The notion that the Irish "got it wrong" exposes gobsmacking ignorance about democracy in the upper echelons of the EU. The very fact that a majority of Irish people said no to Lisbon made it the "right answer", true and sovereign and final. "No" really does mean no.

The Irish were subjected to a tirade of slanderous abuse when they dared to reject officials' carefully crafted and profound (in truth, overlong and turgid) document on the future of the EU. One Brussels official described them as "ungrateful bastards", on the basis that Ireland has received lots of handouts from the EU and thus should be more obedient to its paymaster. Pro-EU commentators blamed "populist demagogues" for cajoling the Irish into voting no, and said the EU's plans should not be "derailed by lies and disinformation".

It was widely claimed that the Irish simply didn't understand the treaty, and may have been confused by its "technocratic, near incomprehensible language" (well, they are ignorant Paddies, after all). Some claimed that the Irish mistakenly, possibly even illegitimately, had used the referendum to register disgruntlement with their own ruling parties. Margot Wallström, vice-president of the European Commission, said officials should try to "work out what the Irish people had really been voting against". I would have thought that was obvious: they were handed the Lisbon treaty; they said no to it.

We've been here before. When French and Dutch voters rejected the European constitution in 2005 (and according to Valery Giscard d'Estaing, the current Lisbon treaty is the "same as the constitution"), they were sneeringly insulted by their betters in Brussels. Neil Kinnock said it was a "triumph of ignorance". Andrew Duff, Liberal Democrat MEP, labelled the "rejectionists" as an "odd bunch of racists, xenophobes, nationalists, communists, the disappointed centre left and the generally pissed off". He asked whether it is wise to "submit the EU Constitution to a lottery of uncoordinated national plebiscites".
You are excellent in finding these obscure explanations, and yet fail to see the forest for the trees.
There is an interesting analysis by the LSE on why voters might change their mind... It brings to mind one of the machevellian principles.. unless the reasons and advantages for change are spelled out very clearly, the prudent person will retain the status quo. The old is familiar and the new is untried. Negative campaigning ,will have stronger appeal . Now in the case of the first Lisbon treaty, the negative campaigning was orchestrated by your friends in SF!. and involved a whole pile of truths, half truths,and untruths ,relating to joint Irish UK military operations, forced abortion legislation etc

It was not helped by the fact that ithe Lisbon treaty was an almost incomprehensible document, tidying up a vast amount of legal phrases...
Such as (and with no further explanation ) ... "Section xyz of annex ABC of the Fgh treaty will be interpreted as.. pqrst. ." So trying to read and interpret this by a layperson ,without access to the underlying documents was very very difficult... It would put one in mind of reading BSI or ISO standards documents for an electric light socket., where everything is referred back to something else.

When the lies and untruths and semi untruths were clarified by means of means of legal guarantees and memos of understanding, the question was put again. .

You could say with clear justication that the Irish Government was complacent perhaps even arrogant, and took their eye off the ball ,and assumed that the Irish electorate was compliant, and did not bother to explain the case fully... (Shades of something else??) . But when they realised their error and actually explained . ..
 
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flecc

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I do agree with you. It was never going to be easy, but it could have been done if all the politicians had honoured their promises and got behind the PM from the start. Instead they have tried to disrupt it all the way. They are put there to represent the electorate (not themselves). I feel certain that if we'd had a united approach we could be in a much stronger position. So I don't think it is the fault of the people who voted,
It's the fault of people like Dominic Grieve Anna Soubry Kier Starmer etc. to name a few. I think it will take the country years to restore any faith in out system , and they wonder why young people don't vote
I completely agree, and making the mess they did of the process played right into the hands of Remainers like me saying this country isn't good enough to survive outside of the EU.

Handling the issue skilfully could have given more faith in the idea of doing well completely outside with no deal, but at the moment I doubt our government, or the opposition if they got into power, could do anything but fail in getting enough international trade to even match what we get in the EU, let alone do better.
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gray198

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You mean a straightforward, salt-of-the-earth, no holds barred, racist party for all the scum who hate foreign people?

Haven't we got enough of groups like that already?

Tom
why have you got to bring racist into every one of your replies. People who voted for Brexit don't hate foreigners half as much as you hate the British people. Maybe you are not British at all. Just some agitator and you accuse others of being trolls.All your posts are tinged with a loathing for your countrymen. I don't mind as long as Corbyns crackpots don't get in power. Mind you it's very easy to make wild promises from the opposition benches. I think all their wild spending pledges would come to nothing
 

gray198

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I completely agree, and making the mess they did of the process played right into the hands of Remainers like me saying this country isn't good enough to survive outside of the EU.

Handling the issue skilfully could have given more faith in the idea of doing well completely outside with no deal, but at the moment I doubt our government, or the opposition if they got into power, could do anything but fail in getting enough international trade to even match what we get in the EU, let alone do better.
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this is an argument I don't understand. Are you saying that if we leave all trade with the EU would suddenly stop. In a previous post you said that there was 45 years of integration to undo and then you talk as if on day one everything would stop. Sorry Flecc I don't buy that. If the EU tried to do that I'm sure they would have some very serious questions to answer
 
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Woosh

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It's the fault of people like Dominic Grieve Anna Soubry Kier Starmer etc. to name a few. I think it will take the country years to restore any faith in out system , and they wonder why young people don't vote
you could have added Boris Johnson to the list. He alone has caused as much trouble for TM's government as the rest of remainer tory rebels put together.
 

flecc

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this is an argument I don't understand. Are you saying that if we leave all trade with the EU would suddenly stop. In a previous post you said that there was 45 years of integration to undo and then you talk as if on day one everything would stop. Sorry Flecc I don't buy that. If the EU tried to do that I'm sure they would have some very serious questions to answer
Misunderstanding. When I posted "completely outside" I was referring to walking away with no deal, not paying what we owe and consequent collapse of trade both ways through mistrust etc.

Of course nothing like that is going to happen now, but if there had been high national confidence about leaving, it could have done.
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oldgroaner

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It really wasn't a draw.

You can't rewrite history.

It was a devastating defeat.
For us all, or looking around, go on, please do so, tell us
what have you actually won?
what kind of Brexit so you want?
No Deal .............we can't live with that can we
Deal.....................we can't get one we actually want
Or just the present state of Pandemonium that suits Putin to the ground.
He's the only winner from your "Victory"

What the leave Vote "Won" was the right to wreck the harmony of the nation by spitting it down the middle politically, and to wreck not merely the present (which it is doing) but the future as well
You won absolutely nothing except the right to damage not only yourself, but the rest of us as well.

And all because of a Tory party internal squabble , lies from a bunch of half wit politicians that either accidentally or by design help Putin undermine European Unity, and fear that we couldn't get our own way in the EU, which is in effect cowardice.
 

oldgroaner

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half as much as you hate the British people. Maybe you are not British at all. Just some agitator and you accuse others of being trolls.All your posts are tinged with a loathing for your countrymen. I
Look I realise you want to appear to be an idiot, but let me assure you there isn't any need.
You really must go back to leave HQ and ask for better material than this. which sounds like it has been passed internally through Boris Johnson before it was passed to you.
 

gray198

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Look I realise you want to appear to be an idiot, but let me assure you there isn't any need.
You really must go back to leave HQ and ask for better material than this. which sounds like it has been passed internally through Boris Johnson before it was passed to you.
Whats that got to do with what I posted. Have you took your tablets today
I thinks it's you that's the idiot. You keep posting all this garbage and think anyone is listening. Fact is we voted to leave and all your whingeing and whining won't change that and if it does the country will take years to recover. But the perhaps you and uncle Tom would be happy with that. Neither of you are worth listening to any more. Flecc how do I delete these two pillocks from my views
 

gray198

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Misunderstanding. When I posted "completely outside" I was referring to walking away with no deal, not paying what we owe and consequent collapse of trade both ways through mistrust etc.

Of course nothing like that is going to happen now, but if there had been high national confidence about leaving, it could have done.
.
even if we leave with no deal are you seriously suggesting that trade would cease out of spite. Politicians on both sides of the channel would have to be pretty stupid (maybe they are) for that to happen
 
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gray198

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Whats that got to do with what I posted. Have you took your tablets today
I thinks it's you that's the idiot. You keep posting all this garbage and think anyone is listening. Fact is we voted to leave and all your whingeing and whining won't change that and if it does the country will take years to recover. But the perhaps you and uncle Tom would be happy with that. Neither of you are worth listening to any more. Flecc how do I delete these two pillocks from my views
Flecc sorted it. That should make the thread a lot more interesting without wading through all the cut and paste and Toms offensive comments
 

Fingers

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For us all, or looking around, go on, please do so, tell us
what have you actually won?
what kind of Brexit so you want?
No Deal .............we can't live with that can we
Deal.....................we can't get one we actually want
Or just the present state of Pandemonium that suits Putin to the ground.
He's the only winner from your "Victory"

What the leave Vote "Won" was the right to wreck the harmony of the nation by spitting it down the middle politically, and to wreck not merely the present (which it is doing) but the future as well
You won absolutely nothing except the right to damage not only yourself, but the rest of us as well.

And all because of a Tory party internal squabble , lies from a bunch of half wit politicians that either accidentally or by design help Putin undermine European Unity, and fear that we couldn't get our own way in the EU, which is in effect cowardice.

Pipe down. You're not doing your blood pressure any good with all this squealing.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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even if we leave with no deal are you seriously suggesting that trade would cease out of spite. Politicians on both sides of the channel would have to be pretty stupid (maybe they are) for that to happen
No, as said, only if we left and defaulted on the legal obligations to meet out dues, creating a total breakdown in relations. That would have been a possibility with a few more hard Brexiters in power, after all, we still have about a hundred in parliament who'd like to walk away in that manner, possibly more.

And yes, the politicians are that stupid, they've launched wars for hurt feelings.
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flecc

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Flecc how do I delete these two
To remove a member's posts from your view, hover over your user name on the menu bar above and choose "people you ignore". Then enter a members name exactly as it appears in the forum and when the site confirmation name pops up below, click Save.
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oldgroaner

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Whats that got to do with what I posted. Have you took your tablets today
I thinks it's you that's the idiot. You keep posting all this garbage and think anyone is listening. Fact is we voted to leave and all your whingeing and whining won't change that and if it does the country will take years to recover. But the perhaps you and uncle Tom would be happy with that. Neither of you are worth listening to any more. Flecc how do I delete these two pillocks from my views
Excuse me, but just who do you think you are?
You came out with this idiotic comment Because we oppose Brexit?
"half as much as you hate the British people. Maybe you are not British at all. Just some agitator and you accuse others of being trolls.All your posts are tinged with a loathing for your countrymen."
Since only an idiot could hold such a view I responded with this
"Look I realise you want to appear to be an idiot, but let me assure you there isn't any need."
Which seems to have been regarded by you as an insult, when it was merely stating the obvious, and your reaction?

"these two pillocks"
"I thinks it's you that's the idiot."
"Have you took your tablets today"
"But the perhaps you and uncle Tom would be happy with that. Neither of you are worth listening to any more. Flecc how do I delete these two pillocks from my views"

And you want to pass yourself off as someone who is worthy of standing in judgement of others?
Are you aware of the connotations of the comment "uncle Tom"?
Perhaps not, that would assume an unreasonable level of intelligence on your part.
You are nothing more and nothing less than a Troll
 
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oldgroaner

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Pipe down. You're not doing your blood pressure any good with all this squealing.
Just checked 120/70 Pulse 60,and the squealing seems to be coming from the leave fans on here,hadn't you noticed?
Two years into the preliminaries of Brexit and the result? Pandemonium, Government and Parliament in turmoil, the voting public split ,not merely down the middle, but is many different directions as well
This is what Brexit has become, a huge liability.
 
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