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Brexit, for once some facts.

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Zlatan

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flecc said:
I agree about hypocrisy but am totally oppose to targetting by gender since it's just a different form of discrimination. The potentially successful can always be successful without this.



Totally agree.



This can be valid though and has been recognised by government within laws. I'm speaking of small units with single figure staffing where the loss of a skilled person for a year is very damaging, especially when the law requires they be re-employed afterwards. That makes it impossible to take on a permanent staff person for training into the job.

Another example which affected my staffing at one time was a small unit where an office worker was also needed to stand by for very occasional heavy manual work. That had to be a male only job.
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Not sure about manual lifting work having to be male flecc. That's what fire service told females 25 years ago. If they can do it let them. Fire service now has equal test requirements (hand grip, lifting, fitness, Co ordination.) If females pass... So be it. I know for a fact my daughters are both way stronger than most would assume:are way stronger than many men and would go mad if I dared to say to them I, ll do that it's too heavy. World has changed flecc.
I once held door open for a lady in a University and beckoned for her to go first. She told me to "feck off" . Yes, over the top but that's how it's gone in many places. And in some ways rightly so.
And the justifying not appointing best person because they might take a year out is way out of line now. Fire Service has equal paternity leave for male and female.
But I suspect we are singing from same hymn book..
 
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flecc

flecc

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Zlatan said:
Not sure about manual lifting work having to be male flecc.
Click to expand...
I'm not speaking of heavy weights permitted under legislation as a normal part of a job. I'm speaking of much more, permitted by exception. You've acknowleded above that females are generally less strong than men and I'm only agreeing that some jobs are unsuitable for most of them

Zlatan said:
And the justifying not appointing best person because they might take a year out is way out of line now. Fire Service has equal paternity leave for male and female.
Click to expand...
No it isn't way out of line and it's entirely legal in the circumstances I described. The fire service is very large, what works for them doesn't work when there's only one or two staff in a unit, as I explained.
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Zlatan

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flecc said:
I'm not speaking of heavy weights permitted under legislation as a normal part of a job. I'm speaking of much more, permitted by exception. You've acknowleded above that females are generally less strong than men and I'm only agreeing that some jobs are unsuitable for most of them



No it isn't way out of line and it's entirely legal in the circumstances I described. The fire service is very large, what works for them doesn't work when there's only one or two staff in a unit, as I explained.
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So a small firm must discriminate and can't be meritocracy and appoints the wrong person because the structure to cope isn't available to allow a female to have a year out and by the way also not allow the male counterpart to take his paternity leave if so required. You are simply justifying a type of discrimination flecc. Not sure about current employment law but it won't be long (especially under EU law) that men can demand equal maternity rights. So when that happens it will end this particular discrimination,perhaps..??
At moment men are only entitled to 2 weeks paternity leave. It will change. Then what ? Don't employ married men? Or what ?
 
oldgroaner

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There are some interesting questions about the campaign TM is launching via the official propaganda organ the BBC program Newsnight.
A woman described as a Pastor came on extolling the virtues of trusting the MP's on the panel and Mrs May's deal
BBC Newsnight‏Verified account @BBCNewsnight Nov 26

Her words...
"The reason they are sitting there is that they know far more about what's going on then we do. I've been a Conservative all my life and I back Prime Minister May." Lynn is sold on the government's Brexit plan

Reactions on twitter as follows
Brexitshambles‏ @brexit_sham 3h3 hours ago

Week after week we have a procession of scam artists appearing on @BBCNewsnight @bbcquestiontime and @SkyNews under the guise of audience participants or official commentators from opaquely funded lobbyists masquerading as educational charities....who checks these people out?
Reaction from the BBC
BBC Newsnight‏Verified account @BBCNewsnight


BBC response

Claims that Lynn appeared on #newsnight as a paid actor are false. Lynn is a pastor and was a genuine participant of our Brexit debate. She carries out work as an extra using her middle name but this is not relevant to the capacity in which she appeared.
response
Tom Pride‏ @ThomasPride 3h3 hours ago


Replying to @BBCNewsnight

Lies lies lies. She is a paid actor. It is her job. She is not an ordained pastor - she is a right-wing, Trump supporting fantasist who calls herself a pastor. Using an actor posing as a member of the public to support the government is a RESIGNING matter.
  1. Tom Pride‏ @ThomasPride 2h2 hours ago


    On her Facebook page, she openly admits she's an actor:


    7 replies 26 retweets 69 likes

    1. 1 more reply

    1. Simon Goretti #FilthyRemainer‏ @GorettiSimon 4h4 hours ago

    Replying to @BBCNewsnight
    You do realise how this kind of thing undermines trust in the BBC though, don't you? It begs further questions surrounding the selection of participants. Who does selection? On which criteria? Are they 'vetted'? Are they truly representative of public opinion? etc. #Vicargate

    4 replies 38 retweets 178 likes




  5. Simon Goretti #FilthyRemainer‏ @GorettiSimon 3h3 hours ago



    I may be going out on a limb here @BBCNewsnight @BBCPolitics @bbcquestiontime @RobBurl , but you are probably going to see an army of amateur 'vetters' checking the credentials of every VoxPop or guest you wheel on. Come clean. Be transparent. Stop playing defence. #VicarGate

    0 replies 5 retweets 68 likes


    1. William Lees #FBPE‏ @WilliamDLees 3h3 hours ago

    Replying to @BBCNewsnight
    She's been spotted in three shows so far and your response is just dissembling. How did you select the panel, why has she made multiple appearances and why was she not more thoroughly introduced? If you want Newsnight to keep any shred of respectability you need to investigate

    5 replies 48 retweets 210 likes

    1. Jon‏ @jiJonathon 4h4 hours ago

    Replying to @BBCNewsnight
    What no apology? You allowed us to believe she was a legitimate member of the clergy. Turns out she is an actor and a pastor for an obscure ministry called Seeds of Wealth that believe money is divine. The laugh is on you and #Brexit.

    2 replies 31 retweets 175 likes


    This is just Hilarious, you couldn't make it up!
 
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flecc

flecc

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Zlatan said:
So a small firm must discriminate and can't be meritocracy and appoints the wrong person because the structure to cope isn't available to allow a female to have a year out and by the way also not allow the male counterpart to take his paternity leave if so required. You are simply justifying a type of discrimination flecc. Not sure about current employment law but it won't be long (especially under EU law) that men can demand equal maternity rights. So when that happens it will end this particular discrimination,perhaps..??
At moment men are only entitled to 2 weeks paternity leave. It will change. Then what ? Don't employ married men? Or what ?
Click to expand...
It;s all very well you being PC about this, but you have no answers to the mess that governments create, like this:

An employer must not discriminate against a skilled woman on the grounds that she might have a child, so they employ her in that single staff role.

She has a child and must be given a year off, but also must be re-employed after that one year.

Now what does the employer do? Temps aren't viable due to the skills of the job and the specifics of this particular job that have been learnt, and they can be very expensive, perhaps beyond available means for a year. So it has to be a permanent staff appointment, but what happens about the end of year? Obviously it has to be made clear it's a year only job to avoid wrongful dismissal action, but that can make it impossible to recruit a skilled person.

Realistically its better to appoint a mature single male to the job and the law sensibly allows that in very small units. It doesn't make any realistic difference to job opportunities in general since these are rare cases, so complaining that it's discrimination is just needlessly being awkward on a principle.
.
 
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oldtom

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oldgroaner said:
This is just Hilarious, you couldn't make it up!
Click to expand...
I've said it before and I'll say it again: 'The lies just never end!'

We have a PM who brazenly lies every time she opens her mouth about the 'Brexit' shambles. She's not even good at it as I'm sure everyone can see that she's lying, having achieved a great big zero after 2 years pursuing a deal. The media are meanwhile busy filling column inches with blatant propaganda (galling lies) in support of the incompetent lying woman.

This is now the story of the king's new clothes and I attach the lyrics as sung by Danny Kaye back in 1952:

This is the story of the King's new clothes. Now there was once a king who was absolutely insane about new clothes and one day, two swindlers came to sell him what they said was a magic suit of clothes. Now, they held up this particular garment and they said, "Your Majesty, this is a magic suit." Well, the truth of the matter is, there was no suit there at all. But the swindlers were very smart, and they said, "Your Majesty, to a wise man this is a beautiful raiment but to a fool it is absolutely invisible." Naturally, the King not wanting to appear a fool, said: "Isn't it grand! Isn't it fine! Look at the cut, the style, the line! The suit of clothes is altogether, but altogether it's altogether The most remarkable suit of clothes that I have ever seen. These eyes of mine at once determined The sleeves are velvet, the cape is ermine The hose are blue and the doublet is a lovely shade of green Somebody send for the Queen" Well they sent for the Queen and they quickly explained to her about the magic suit of clothes. And naturally, the Queen not wanting to appear a fool, said: "Well, isn't it oh! Isn't it rich! Look at the charm of every stitch! The suit of clothes is altogether, but altogether it's altogether The most remarkable suit of clothes that I have ever seen These eyes of mine at once determined The sleeves are velvet, the cape is ermine The hose are blue and the doublet is a lovely shade of green Summon the court to convene" Well the court convened, and you never saw in your life as many people as were at that court. All the ambassadors, the dukes, the earls, the counts, it was just packed with people, and they were all told about the magic suit of clothes. And after they were told they naturally didn't want to appear fools and they said: "Isn't it ohhh! Isn't it ahhh! Isn't it absolutely wheee! (whistle sound) The suit of clothes is altogether, but altogether, it's altogether The most remarkable suit of clothes a tailor ever made Now quickly, put it altogether With gloves of leather and hat and feather It's altogether the thing to wear in Saturday's parade Leading the royal brigade" Now Saturday came and the streets were just lined with thousands and thousands and thousands of people. And they all were cheering as the artillery came by, the infantry marched by, the cavalry galloped by. And everybody was cheering like mad, except one little boy. You see, he hadn't heard about the magic suit and didn't know what he was supposed to see. Well, as the King came by the little boy looked and, horrified, said: "Look at the King! Look at the the King! Look at the King, the King, the King! The King is in the altogether, but altogether, the altogether He's altogether as naked as the day that he was born The King is in the altogether, but altogether, the altogether It's altogether the very least the King has ever worn" Summon the court physician! Call an intermission! His majesty is wide open to ridicule and scorn. The King is in the altogether, but all together, the altogether He's altogether as naked as the day that he was born And it's altogether too chilly a morn!

Tom
 
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Fingers

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oldgroaner said:
There are some interesting questions about the campaign TM is launching via the official propaganda organ the BBC program Newsnight.
A woman described as a Pastor came on extolling the virtues of trusting the MP's on the panel and Mrs May's deal
BBC Newsnight‏Verified account @BBCNewsnight Nov 26

Her words...
"The reason they are sitting there is that they know far more about what's going on then we do. I've been a Conservative all my life and I back Prime Minister May." Lynn is sold on the government's Brexit plan

Reactions on twitter as follows
Brexitshambles‏ @brexit_sham 3h3 hours ago

Week after week we have a procession of scam artists appearing on @BBCNewsnight @bbcquestiontime and @SkyNews under the guise of audience participants or official commentators from opaquely funded lobbyists masquerading as educational charities....who checks these people out?
Reaction from the BBC
BBC Newsnight‏Verified account @BBCNewsnight


BBC response

Claims that Lynn appeared on #newsnight as a paid actor are false. Lynn is a pastor and was a genuine participant of our Brexit debate. She carries out work as an extra using her middle name but this is not relevant to the capacity in which she appeared.
response
Tom Pride‏ @ThomasPride 3h3 hours ago


Replying to @BBCNewsnight

Lies lies lies. She is a paid actor. It is her job. She is not an ordained pastor - she is a right-wing, Trump supporting fantasist who calls herself a pastor. Using an actor posing as a member of the public to support the government is a RESIGNING matter.
  1. Tom Pride‏ @ThomasPride 2h2 hours ago


    On her Facebook page, she openly admits she's an actor:


    7 replies 26 retweets 69 likes

    1. 1 more reply

    1. Simon Goretti #FilthyRemainer‏ @GorettiSimon 4h4 hours ago

    Replying to @BBCNewsnight
    You do realise how this kind of thing undermines trust in the BBC though, don't you? It begs further questions surrounding the selection of participants. Who does selection? On which criteria? Are they 'vetted'? Are they truly representative of public opinion? etc. #Vicargate

    4 replies 38 retweets 178 likes




  5. Simon Goretti #FilthyRemainer‏ @GorettiSimon 3h3 hours ago



    I may be going out on a limb here @BBCNewsnight @BBCPolitics @bbcquestiontime @RobBurl , but you are probably going to see an army of amateur 'vetters' checking the credentials of every VoxPop or guest you wheel on. Come clean. Be transparent. Stop playing defence. #VicarGate

    0 replies 5 retweets 68 likes


    1. William Lees #FBPE‏ @WilliamDLees 3h3 hours ago

    Replying to @BBCNewsnight
    She's been spotted in three shows so far and your response is just dissembling. How did you select the panel, why has she made multiple appearances and why was she not more thoroughly introduced? If you want Newsnight to keep any shred of respectability you need to investigate

    5 replies 48 retweets 210 likes

    1. Jon‏ @jiJonathon 4h4 hours ago

    Replying to @BBCNewsnight
    What no apology? You allowed us to believe she was a legitimate member of the clergy. Turns out she is an actor and a pastor for an obscure ministry called Seeds of Wealth that believe money is divine. The laugh is on you and #Brexit.

    2 replies 31 retweets 175 likes


    This is just Hilarious, you couldn't make it up!
Click to expand...

I think if the human brain is capable of making The Matrix (the movie) which is a story of rebels who fight against a "world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth."

The truth is that "there are endless fields, where human beings are no longer born, we are grown" to serve as batteries to provide energy for artificial intelligences (AIs). AIs even "liquefy the dead so they could be fed intravenously to the living." But the minds of these humans see only the Matrix, "a neural-interactive simulation, ... a computer generated dream world built to keep us under control." There are "billions of people just living out their lives, oblivious" to these facts, who "believe it's the year 1999 when in fact it's closer to 2199.

Then I think the idea of getting a supporter of the sitting government onto a TV panel without the producers cottoning on is actually a very basic ruse that could be made up by averagely intelligent 10 year old.
 
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Wicky

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Z

Zlatan

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flecc said:
It;s all very well you being PC about this, but you have no answers to the mess that governments create, like this:

An employer must not discriminate against a skilled woman on the grounds that she might have a child, so they employ her in that single staff role.

She has a child and must be given a year off, but also must be re-employed after that one year.

Now what does the employer do? Temps aren't viable due to the skills of the job and the specifics of this particular job that have been learnt, and they can be very expensive, perhaps beyond available means for a year. So it has to be a permanent staff appointment, but what happens about the end of year? Obviously it has to be made clear it's a year only job to avoid wrongful dismissal action, but that can make it impossible to recruit a skilled person.

Realistically its better to appoint a mature single male to the job and the law sensibly allows that in very small units. It doesn't make any realistic difference to job opportunities in general since these are rare cases, so complaining that it's discrimination is just needlessly being awkward on a principle.
.
Click to expand...
A very odd view for a person who makes out he is both a federalist and socialist.
Totally disagree with you flecc. Any firm can cope with granting maternity leave. If they can't they shouldn't be in business, big or small.
A person's career spans 35/40 years, having one out for having a child is going to have little effect. It's an excuse to carry on old fashioned dogma. At what point in your argument does maternity leave become acceptable. 500 employees? A thousand.? By your reasoning no women of child bearing age would be employed. Think you are stuck in 50,s flecc. Time to move on. Get organised, efficient and expect people to do same.
Yes, it might be an inconvenience and comes at a cost to our capitalist way of thinking.. But so what.. Or perhaps your business owner should roll up in his flash car and sack all women between 16 and 40..Think you are stuck in victorian times, never mind 50's.
 
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...and the `Hard Border` scam being torn to shreds.

At a meeting of the House of Commons Liaison Committee on 29th November 2018, Dr. Julian Lewis MP grilled Theresa May on the Irish border issue. She didn't have any convincing answers. No-one would build a hard border. The UK wouldn't, Ireland wouldn't, and neither would the EU.

 
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