Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Isn't it rather the illustration of a long running conflict between Spain and the UK? A conflict which was calmed down when the UK joined the EU.

In 2000, a political declaration of unity was signed by the members of the Gibraltar Parliament; it stated "In essence the declaration stated that the people of Gibraltar will never compromise, give up or trade their sovereignty or their right to self-determination; that Gibraltar wants good, neighbourly, European relations with Spain; and that Gibraltar belongs to the people of Gibraltar and is neither Spain's to claim or Britain's to give away."

My bold text.

Which rather suggests the Gibraltarians don't accept our rule over them do they?

On that basis we should stand back and say to the pair of them
"Sort it out between yourselves and get back to us."

 

[anotherkiwi]

Which rather suggests the Gibraltarians don't accept our rule over them do they?

They have a nice little earner humming along with gambling, cheap fags and booze and... oh surprise! Offshore banking...

 

[oldgroaner]

This morning's Brexit quiz questions
Who said before the referendum

"There are no downsides to Brexit,only considerable upsides"
And of course all those trade deals that only required a phone call to Berlin and and "Would be the easiest trade deals in Human History"

And who said two years later
Only the dimmest thought that leaving would be an instant boom.
We knew leaving was always going to be a struggle short term. The vote was for future generations.

Such style to gratuitously insult millions of people on his own side.

 

[oldgroaner]

They have a nice little earner humming along with gambling, cheap fags and booze and... oh surprise! Offshore banking...

Really? I'm shocked! really I am.....

 

[oldgroaner]

A pertinent tweet this morning

Never before has the quote by Billy Connolly been more true than it is today. "The desire to be a politician should bar you for life from ever becoming one." What a god awful shower of numpties we have governing us.

 

[tillson]

Just one problem tillson, it does,and we won't stop that by leaving, and regarding Gibraltar,what nation wouldn't object to having part of its land under foreign ownership?
This dispute long predates the EEC and the EU

It’s plain old nationalism. To seize, own and keep is built into the DNA of human beings and as countries, we collectively exhibit the same characteristics. Try as much as they like, the EU will never put an end to that.

I’m not saying that our leaving will alter anything in that regard.

 

[oldgroaner]

Speaks for itself

What's the betting even fingers and Tommie can understand that?

 

[Danidl]

Nice to see the EU aspiration of eradicating nationalism and pulling together as one working so well. Wait a minute........

This is a shining example of why the EU model can never work in its present form. It’s a pan full of very different and incompatible cultures, interests and ambitions pulling in different directions to serve individual national interests. The EU can’t and won’t prosper without major reform.

So you don't believe in strength through diversity?... Does it have to be one way,one voice...that leads into Fascism.

 

[oldgroaner]

It’s plain old nationalism. To seize, own and keep is built into the DNA of human beings and as countries, we collectively exhibit the same characteristics. Try as much as they like, the EU will never put an end to that.

I’m not saying that our leaving will alter anything in that regard.

Germany made federation work
America
China
Russia,
Ourselves too
Are you saying this was accidental? what happened for instance to the old Saxon Kingdoms that hated each other and fought like cats?
According to that logic the United Kingdom itself is an anomaly.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Meanwhile in Japan...

The very pro EU Nissan boss has been toppled by a coup. There must be a few nervous people in Nissan UK this morning.

 

[tillson]

Germany made federation work
America
China
Russia,
Ourselves too
Are you saying this was accidental? what happened for instance to the old Saxon Kingdoms that hated each other and fought like cats?
According to that logic the United Kingdom itself is an anomaly.

That was in olden days with smaller & more easily managed populations. Society is much more sophisticated today. The EU’s course in present times is dangerous.

I am of the opinion the the UK should remain in the EU, clearly no one is capable of getting us out. At least if we are on the inside, we can hinder, frustrate and veto the unwise aspirations.

 

[Danidl]

It’s plain old nationalism. To seize, own and keep is built into the DNA of human beings and as countries, we collectively exhibit the same characteristics. Try as much as they like, the EU will never put an end to that.

I’m not saying that our leaving will alter anything in that regard.

I do agree with you on that point. There is always a conflict between the generous impulse and the self serving... L. Cohen song put it neatly..". I will help you if I can, I will kill you if I must..."

The talk on local radio here, is that the terms of a future trading arrangement of EU/UK will be so fraught with local issues, that the British will look back with nostalgia at the simplicity of the withdrawal agreement, where they had only one group to negociate with. I did suggest perhaps a 1000 posts back, that any country with any axe to grind with the UK (and there are many ) would be revising them... . Perhaps the Danes will want compensation for the totally illegal attack on their city by the Royal Navy in the French war of 1810..., Or the French seeking the recovery of a few Islands they call the Ils Normand , which are certainly not in the English channel, or as now appears, the Spanish with Gib.
Many of these are grandstanding,and will not be resolved but they are wearing .

 

[Danidl]

That was in olden days with smaller & more easily managed populations. Society is much more sophisticated today. The EU’s course in present times is dangerous.

I am of the opinion the the UK should remain in the EU, clearly no one is capable of getting us out. At least if we are on the inside, we can hinder, frustrate and veto the unwise aspirations.

Yes! yes !..again more agreement... We the irish want the UK in the EU, and it's not just or even the money, .

 

[oldtom]

This is a shining example of why the EU model can never work in its present form. It’s a pan full of very different and incompatible cultures, interests and ambitions pulling in different directions to serve individual national interests. The EU can’t and won’t prosper without major reform.

Sorry, 'tillson' but that simply isn't so and implies that the EU has somehow failed.

I accept your remark about reform being required but I disagree that there is any need for major changes. As it happens, I believe the EU has done remarkably well at bringing about change through agreement over several decades. In the case of Spain, a country that was repressed under Franco until 1975, before becoming a constitutional monarchy, it only joined what is now the EU in 1986. The EU has not stood still but has evolved slowly, each major change being arrived at democratically and given the history of Europe, that in itself is quite an achievement.

Today, the project continues as a work in progress and in spite of the UKIP clowns, elected as MEPs because the public showed little interest in EU elections but rarely voted for that party in domestic elections, the majority among EU member states held sway and Farage and Co were unable to destabilise or disrupt that progress.

The problems that afflict the British people are nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with the tory government of recent years and leaving the EU will not improve matters; indeed, it will exacerbate the difficulties for ordinary folk and the EU will no longer be the whipping boy for all the nation's ills and discontent.

Tom

 

[Woosh]

At least if we are on the inside, we can hinder, frustrate and veto the unwise aspirations.

since qualified majority voting is brought in (1/11/2014), the UK can no longer hinder, frustrate and veto what it doesn't like.

 

[flecc]

ANGELA Merkel has suggested countries should be willing to give up control over their own affairs and let organisations such as the European Union have more power in a veiled swipe at Brexit, as the German Chancellor threatens to derail Britain's exit from the bloc.

Speaking at an event organised by the Konrad Adenauer Foundation in Berlin today, the outgoing leader of the Christian Democratic Union argued that countries should be prepared to make concessions in an “orderly procedure”.

She said parliaments should make the decision to sign such contracts, reports German news channel Welt.

Mrs Merkel, who last month announced she was controversially stepping down as leader of her party but not as Chancellor of Germany despite previously saying the two roles go hand in glove, said ceding power to a superstate is a better form of patriotism.

She told the event, titled ‘Parliamentarianism Between Globalisation and National Sovereignty’: "In this day nation states must today - should today, I say - be ready to give up sovereignty.

"But of course in an orderly procedure.”

Mrs Merkel said that countries who think “they can solve everything on their own” are simply nationalistic and not patriotic because they “only think about themselves.”

She said: "Either you are one of those who believe they can solve everything on their own and only have to think about themselves. That is nationalism in its purest form.

“This is not patriotism. Because patriotism is if you include others in the German interest and accept win-win situations."

Mrs Merkel made an impassioned speech calling for countries to give power to the EU
Mrs Merkel made the comments during a speech defending a United Nations agreement on migration which regulates the treatment of migrants around the world.

“This is not patriotism. Because patriotism is if you include others in the German interest and accept win-win situations”

I can only respond that I wish Angela Merkel was our woman prime minister.
.

 

[tillson]

since qualified majority voting is brought in (1/11/2014), the UK can no longer hinder, frustrate and veto what it doesn't like.

Hmmmm. Maybe we should exit then.

 

[flecc]

It’s plain old nationalism. To seize, own and keep is built into the DNA of human beings and as countries, we collectively exhibit the same characteristics. Try as much as they like, the EU will never put an end to that.

I agree, but they will achieve a form of compatibility. The USA's north/south relationship is an example, never agreeing on everything but functioning surprisingly well as a single country both are proud of.

That is the EU's eventual future, a Europe all are proud of, despite many internal differences.
.

 

[oldtom]

What of the party of the policies that Farage championed? What are they doing today?

You can read about the latest UKIP initiative from 'VoxPolitical' here:

ukip-appoints-jailbird-who-nearly-ruined-a-rape-trial-as-adviser-on-prison-reform-and-rape-gangs

Tom

 

[oldtom]

British humour will always prevail:





Tom