Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

May is also talking about NO BREXIT,how would that be achieved other than a second vote.

TM tells brexiters who do not want her deal that they'll get no brexit, at the same time, she tells remainers who do not want her deal they'll get WTO/no deal.
It is one or the other, it can't be both unless we get out on WTO then rejoin immediately.
The way to no brexit is fresh GE, JC gets in. When he finds out that the EU won't agree to UK in the SM or CU and free to subsidise and nationalise, he'll call another referendum.
BTW, when JC gets in, most voters will be well aware that the EU won't let the UK have cake and eating it.

 

[flecc]

There is increasing talk about a second referendum,Peter Hain said on All Out Politics that another referendum was now more likely than 2 months ago.

In and around parliament there is an increasing consensus agreeing with this. Much depends on how stubborn May will be in the face of the evidence of the public's changed mood.
.

 

[Woosh]

In and around parliament there is an increasing consensus agreeing with this. Much depends on how stubborn May will be in the face of the evidence of the public's changed mood.
.

TM can't change her position on brexit - 70%+ of the conservative membership are brexiters and wealthy enough not to be affected by leaving the EU, they may even pick up some bargains on the way.

 

[Fingers]

I am sure that the Bill before the HoC can be amended in whatever way you wish. So if you wish to put any amendments about unicorns etc.. feel free, but do not expect that any will have any effect on the EU position. So putting in riders of withdrawal from Article 50.can only be local law. It does not mean that the eu will accede

No problem. The attitude you are showing simply makes me wish for a hard Brexit. No Deal.

You sound like a turkey wishing for Xmas.

I hope the real negotiators are more sensible than you though.

 

[Kudoscycles]

TM can't change her position on brexit - 70%+ of the conservative membership are brexiters and wealthy enough not to be affected by leaving the EU, they may even pick up some bargains on the way.

Where do you get that 70% figure from? Anyway she is the expert on U-turns,if she cant get her deal through and no deal is toxic,she wont want a GE,so which way can she turn????
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

No problem. The attitude you are showing simply makes me wish for a hard Brexit. No Deal.

You sound like a turkey wishing for Xmas.

I hope the real negotiators are more sensible than you though.

Click Bait: these messages bear an uncanny resemblance to stock responses from Bots.
You really need to be less mechanical and more original fingers.

 

[flecc]

TM can't change her position on brexit - 70%+ of the conservative membership are brexiters and wealthy enough not to be affected by leaving the EU, they may even pick up some bargains on the way.

Then she'll wreck the Tories electoral position for the second time.

After 10 years of austerity it only needs a very slight further worsening of living standards etc to produce a very big backlash.
.

 

[Danidl]

No problem. The attitude you are showing simply makes me wish for a hard Brexit. No Deal.

You sound like a turkey wishing for Xmas.

I hope the real negotiators are more sensible than you though.

That was in response to, I think kiwis ,post. . Which negotiation are you referring to?. The withdrawal agreement negotiation has concluded. There might be a few crumbs and fudges and a few I s to be dotted on Sunday but it is OVER.
The next phase, is what comes after, and in this phase, naked self interest of individual countries might be more to the fore. Now I want to see the UK get a fair deal.
Just so that we are extremely clear in this point. EU commentators made reference to Magic Thinking on the UK side, . Hence the reference to unicorns.

Whilst there is just now a court case taking place,initiated by concerned British parliamentarians, as to whether Article 50 means Article 50 ,. This is being argued in the European Court of Justice,and despite a request by the UK attorney general not to hear it.. The outcome of this case will be to determine whether it can be in the gift of the UK to unilaterally take back their letter of intent, should they desire before 29th March.
I suspect that the verdict will be NO. .. That the process initiated by Mrs Mays letter was irrevocable, from a UK perspective. If that were to be the verdict, then my post makes perfect sense.
What we DO know, is that should the Council of Europe agree UNANIMOUSLY to scrap the letter triggering Article 50 , following a letter from the 28th member, .the UK PM, then the BREXIt process terminates. Of course the CoE would not do that unless firm guarantees were in place that this was not a stopgap.
So the UK has no guarantee at present, irrespective of whatever legislation they pass,of not being outside the EU on 30th March.
Now I have done you the honour of actually explaining clearly to you. I will not be responding to any further points of clarification,or semi vailed insults. You may in time,and when the verdict from the ECJ comes gloat ,if my prediction is incorrect..

 

[oldgroaner]

The content of posts can identify whether the poster fits into the following category

1. a troll is someone who posts inflammatory
2. extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response
3. or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Do not react to such posts

Aren't we lucky that no one so far has come on here with that intent?

(Surely that deserves a laugh icon rating?)

 

[oldgroaner]

We got fed up of being the little guys big brother. Especially when when all you did was have a dig at us.

Your governments attitude to us leaving says it all. Petty point scoring for historical reasons. Well done. Now see who loses most. I want a hard Brexit now.

By the oddest of coincidences, Putin wants the same thing!

 

[tillson]

The content of posts can identify whether the poster fits into the following category

1. a troll is someone who posts inflammatory
2. extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response
3. or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Do not react to such posts

Aren't we lucky that no one so far has come on here with that intent?

(Surely that deserves a laugh icon rating?)

It’s much simpler than that.

Supports Brexit = Troll

Rejects Brexit = Not Troll.

 

[tillson]

Then she'll wreck the Tories electoral position for the second time
.

In this time of uncertainty, we can be certain that she will wreck everything she touches.

 

[Woosh]

Where do you get that 70% figure from? Anyway she is the expert on U-turns,if she cant get her deal through and no deal is toxic,she wont want a GE,so which way can she turn????
KudosDave

There were numerous polls before the EU referendum. Since, support for hard brexit has dropped a little but overall, the conservative grassroots will vote for brexit again and again.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/oct/08/labour-and-tory-mayors-unite-to-demand-they-take-back-control-of-regional-spending-after-brexit-politics-live?page=with:block-5bbb76f0e4b0fe77b41b05ed#block-5bbb76f0e4b0fe77b41b05ed

QUOTE:
These figures suggest that 77% of Conservative voters in England think Brexit would be worth it even if it led to Scottish independence, and 73% of them think Brexit would be worth it even if it led to the unravelling of the Northern Ireland peace process.

 

[oldgroaner]

It’s much simpler than that.

Supports Brexit = Troll

Rejects Brexit = Not Troll.

No tillson it isn't as well you know it, when posts contain no element worthy of debate just slurs and are intended to create upset and a cause diverting argument, that is Trolling
After all you and I debated the merits for and against Bexit and there was never any contents in your posts that marked you out as a troll was there?

And woosh speaks often favourably about Brexit and doesn't resort to trolling does he?

Sorry you are wrong to try and cover up for clowns who's only reason for coming on is to see how much disruption they can cause
It's a simple as that
This is how it works

Post with a pragmatic and thought through argument worth debating
=Not Troll

Post with the sole intent of pretending to support Brexit, but actually invariably post simple propaganda and stir up trouble to prevent normal discussion
=Trolling

The culprits need to conform to the norms of debate the same as every one else.

 

[Woosh]

Anyway she is the expert on U-turns,if she cant get her deal through and no deal is toxic,she wont want a GE,so which way can she turn????

she'll get her deal because the hard brexiters and Corbynites won't make up the numbers.
She will work the salami machine, she'll make them vote again and again, between the HoC and the Lords with numerous amendments until they chicken out and fall in line.
In truth, the Northern Irish have the best deal of all the parts of the UK, how much would any of them care about a few more animal welfare checks at sea? The only reason they kick up a fuss is because they want more money for their support. The Corbynites know that they are not going to get to remain in the single market and make rules for the EU27.

 

[flecc]

Since, support for hard brexit has dropped a little but overall, the conservative grassroots will vote for brexit again and again.

I agree, but there would be a far more determined Remain turnout.

I'm sure many inclined to Remain didn't turn out originally due to the same smug complacency that Cameron and the media had, confident of a remain win. They wouldn't make that mistake again, so Remain would have it.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

I agree, but there would be a far more determined Remain turnout.

I'm sure many inclined to Remain didn't turn out originally due to the same smug complacency that Cameron and the media had, confident of a remain win. They wouldn't make that mistake again, so Remain would have it.
.

I am hoping to be proved wrong on this but I suspect she will get the deal passed because of the fear factor involved.
Which means of course if she does,no referendum on it.

 

[Fingers]

That was in response to, I think kiwis ,post. . Which negotiation are you referring to?. The withdrawal agreement negotiation has concluded. There might be a few crumbs and fudges and a few I s to be dotted on Sunday but it is OVER.
The next phase, is what comes after, and in this phase, naked self interest of individual countries might be more to the fore. Now I want to see the UK get a fair deal.
Just so that we are extremely clear in this point. EU commentators made reference to Magic Thinking on the UK side, . Hence the reference to unicorns.

Whilst there is just now a court case taking place,initiated by concerned British parliamentarians, as to whether Article 50 means Article 50 ,. This is being argued in the European Court of Justice,and despite a request by the UK attorney general not to hear it.. The outcome of this case will be to determine whether it can be in the gift of the UK to unilaterally take back their letter of intent, should they desire before 29th March.
I suspect that the verdict will be NO. .. That the process initiated by Mrs Mays letter was irrevocable, from a UK perspective. If that were to be the verdict, then my post makes perfect sense.
What we DO know, is that should the Council of Europe agree UNANIMOUSLY to scrap the letter triggering Article 50 , following a letter from the 28th member, .the UK PM, then the BREXIt process terminates. Of course the CoE would not do that unless firm guarantees were in place that this was not a stopgap.
So the UK has no guarantee at present, irrespective of whatever legislation they pass,of not being outside the EU on 30th March.
Now I have done you the honour of actually explaining clearly to you. I will not be responding to any further points of clarification,or semi vailed insults. You may in time,and when the verdict from the ECJ comes gloat ,if my prediction is incorrect..

I'm sorry but you're wrong. Nothing has been concluded. Nothing.

A deal has been offered. It will be rejected. Then we will start again.

If not then it's cliff edge.

Spain has said they will veto the current deal. So how has it been concluded?

Sorry mate but you're wrong.

 

[tillson]

No tillson it isn't as well you know it, when posts contain no element worthy of debate just slurs and are intended to create upset and a cause diverting argument, that is Trolling
After all you and I debated the merits for and against Bexit and there was never any contents in your posts that marked you out as a troll was there?

And woosh speaks often favourably about Brexit and doesn't resort to trolling does he?

Sorry you are wrong to try and cover up for clowns who's only reason for coming on is to see how much disruption they can cause
It's a simple as that
This is how it works

Post with a pragmatic and thought through argument worth debating
=Not Troll

Post with the sole intent of pretending to support Brexit, but actually invariably post simple propaganda and stir up trouble to prevent normal discussion
=Trolling

The culprits need to conform to the norms of debate the same as every one else.

I was giving you a light hearted prod. Nothing serious, just a bit of friendly trolling.

 

[Woosh]

I'm sure many inclined to Remain didn't turn out originally due to the same smug complacency that Cameron and the media had, confident of a remain win. They wouldn't make that mistake again, so Remain would have it.

true but as long as the conservatives hold the power, the UK heads for brexit.
You need JC to win the next GE and maybe, just maybe, JC may be persuaded to reverse brexit via another referendum. It is still a long shot.
Voters need to experience brexit before the next referendum.