Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

Sooner or later this will have to be resolved, just like all the other consequences of selling the family silver. Sooner is always cheaper.
.

I think John McDonnell wants to fund it with bonds. The plan is credible as long as the bond yields a reasonable return (say 4+%), that means we can solve the problem of pollution and under investment but the cost to the home owners will remain high for another generation.

 

[flecc]

but the EU was not what we voted to join. Or was it meant to be that all along and we did not know what we were voting for ??? To use a common argument from the remain side

Not just a common argument but the truth. A little while ago I posted in here the statement at the time which made it very clear that an EU was the intention. That the electorate largely took no notice was their fault, I knew in 1975 that was intended and supported it

You can go back as far as the original Treaty of Rome and the Iron and Steel agreement that started the whole ball rolling and it was always clear what the objective was.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

but the EU was not what we voted to join. Or was it meant to be that all along and we did not know what we were voting for ??? To use a common argument from the remain side

The truth is you were no wiser then than you are now, and simply had no idea what you were voting for.
Of course it was it was there in the original treaty of Rome, and in any case if you trouble to take the time to read this thread (and understand it)
You would see how few things we are committed to as members of the EU.
You have in fact just admitted all along and you did not know what we were voting for ??? and whose fault is that?
Those who actually bothered to read the treaty knew exactly what the long term implications were.
It isn't our fault that you simply couldn't be bothered to is it? and you managed to do the same thing of voting without checking on the Brexit referendum, as you had no idea of what we were and were not committed to did you?
Did you think our rebate was because the EU felt sorry for us? or we bullied them into it?

Once again in the vain attempt at bringing facts to your attention, I am reposting this schematic.
Far from the EU forcing it's controls and laws on us, this is the actual plot of the opt outs all member nations have.
Notably the nation with the most opt outs is of course the UK
The notion we are "Dominated by the EU" is an utter barefaced Lie.

And Cameron negotiated no further integration too
So apart from buying trouble for everyone, tell me what did your vote for leave actually achieve?

 

[gray198]

How odd! we have info that as many as 670,000 attended the London Anti Brexit march, but try as I might , I have failed to find out how many millions attended Farages Pro Brexit Rally.

Was there simply too many to count?

Interesting chat about this on Thursday when Alistair Campbell was extolling the virtues of a second vote saying that the Gov should take notice of it. He was reminded by Andrew Neal that when Labour were in government of which he was a part that 1.5 million people demonstrated against going to war in Iraq but that was ignored. Of course he waffled that it was decided by a vote in Parliament so it was different. Am I wrong but didn't Parliament vote to give the people a vote on whether to leave the EU, saying that it would respect the result. Didn't both parties say at the last GE that they would respect the result. Of course the main problem is that they did not get the result they were expecting even after using 9.5 million of taxpayers money to try and scare everyone to death. I don't think the leave campaign were allowed 9.5 mill of taxpayers money to present their case. I seem to recall that in the leaflet we were told it would mean leaving the CU and the SM but the stupid people still decided they wanted to leave. Of course the ones who are superior and possessed of a much higher intelligence have decided that we can't leave without armageddon descending on the country because it is such a useless country and the people have no worth and no talent and no inspiration and we need the EU to wipe our backsides for evermore. As a matter of interest what would happen if we changed our minds and said we wanted to stay in. Armageddon I think

 

[gray198]

The truth is you were no wiser then than you are now, and simply had no idea what you were voting for.
Of course it was it was there in the original treaty of Rome, and in any case if you trouble to take the time to read this thread (and understand it)
You would see how few things we are committed to as members of the EU.
You have in fact just admitted all along and you did not know what we were voting for ??? and whose fault is that?
Those who actually bothered to read the treaty knew exactly what the long term implications were.
It isn't our fault that you simply couldn't be bothered to is it? and you managed to do the same thing of voting without checking on the Brexit referendum, as you had no idea of what we were and were not committed to did you?
Did you think our rebate was because the EU felt sorry for us? or we bullied them into it?

Once again in the vain attempt at bringing facts to your attention, I am reposting this schematic.
Far from the EU forcing it's controls and laws on us, this is the actual plot of the opt outs all member nations have.
Notably the nation with the most opt outs is of course the UK
The notion we are "Dominated by the EU" is an utter barefaced Lie.

And Cameron negotiated no further integration too

I voted to not join

 

[gray198]

Not just a common argument but the truth. A little while ago I posted in here the statement at the time which made it very clear that an EU was the intention. That the electorate largely took no notice was their fault, I knew in 1975 that was intended and supported it

You can go back as far as the original Treaty of Rome and the Iron and Steel agreement that started the whole ball rolling and it was always clear what the objective was.
.

Why is it the truth. We were told it meant leaving to SM and the CU. It was in the dodgy leaflet sent out and it was stated in many TV interviews, by leaders

 

[Woosh]

As a matter of interest what would happen if we changed our minds and said we wanted to stay in. Armageddon I think

the right wing press will say it's a stitch up and want another referendum.
The key thing is it's useless if the current parliament repeats the same cycle: authorise a second referendum but can't respect the result because there is no majority for any form of brexit.
we need a new GE to create a more stable government and a PM with a strong mandate.

 

[gray198]

OG how do you expect people to read these treaties and make sense of them. Even politicians don't understand them. That's why they have advisers and lawyers to decipher them. Maybe we shoild all have read the Mastricht treaty or the Lisbon one, but then again they were just rammed down our throat, despite Blair saying we would get a vote. Politicians are such liars

 

[Woosh]

Maybe we shoild all have read the Mastricht treaty or the Lisbon one

if TM succeeds in getting her deal through parliament, these EU treaties will be a lot better understood becaue we'll continue to compare being out and follow all the rules in order to stay in the SM and full membership.

I have little doubt that if another referendum is called toward then end of the transition, the result will be much more respected.
The worst outcome is a no deal brexit. We will be caught unawares in a worst possible situation.

 

[oldtom]

I regretfully don't think JC is going to succeed albeit I wish he will. They are certainly worthwhile aspirations.
In some ways, the railways is already mostly public owned. The Post Office works reasonably well like it is, not worth giving it a priority. The water companies are expensive to buy back and not a priority.
I reckon JC will take back the rail franchises but if he messes with tax too much or too quickly, it may cause house price to crash, the banks will crash with that, this country will be in deep troubles, up to the neck in debts and all the family silvers have already been sold off to foreigners.

Have you been drinking?

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Would Remain win a second vote?
KudosDave

Easily!

Tom

 

[Woosh]

Have you been drinking?

Tom

I referred to rebalancing the tax burden. JC should be able to renationalise the railways and possibly buying back some of the water companies but shifting the tax burden to the rich and to corporation tax is a very dodgy game.

 

[oldgroaner]

Interesting chat about this on Thursday when Alistair Campbell was extolling the virtues of a second vote saying that the Gov should take notice of it. He was reminded by Andrew Neal that when Labour were in government of which he was a part that 1.5 million people demonstrated against going to war in Iraq but that was ignored. Of course he waffled that it was decided by a vote in Parliament so it was different. Am I wrong but didn't Parliament vote to give the people a vote on whether to leave the EU, saying that it would respect the result. Didn't both parties say at the last GE that they would respect the result. Of course the main problem is that they did not get the result they were expecting even after using 9.5 million of taxpayers money to try and scare everyone to death. I don't think the leave campaign were allowed 9.5 mill of taxpayers money to present their case. I seem to recall that in the leaflet we were told it would mean leaving the CU and the SM but the stupid people still decided they wanted to leave. Of course the ones who are superior and possessed of a much higher intelligence have decided that we can't leave without armageddon descending on the country because it is such a useless country and the people have no worth and no talent and no inspiration and we need the EU to wipe our backsides for evermore. As a matter of interest what would happen if we changed our minds and said we wanted to stay in. Armageddon I think

This is a load of rubbish and you know it Parliament didn't do this
"Am I wrong but didn't Parliament vote to give the people a vote on whether to leave the EU, saying that it would respect the result.
David Cameron did that, and he glossed over the fact that the Referendum was advisory only over the fear this would reduce the turnout.

"of course the main problem is that they did not get the result they were expecting even after using 9.5 million of taxpayers money to try and scare everyone to death. I don't think the leave campaign were allowed 9.5 mill of taxpayers money to present their case."

Really, then this will surprise you.
"Using official figures from the Electoral Commission, The Guardian estimates that the combined total given to both sides is around £28m, with Leave receiving £4m more than Remain, primarily from Tory donors."
Which means
Remain received £12 Million
Leave received £16 Million
And of course there is this
"Vote Leave is under investigation by the Electoral Commission over whether it breached the £7m EU referendum spending limit, with allegations being made that it channelled funds for a social Brexit media campaign via £625,000 in donations to a student.

Your Urban myth just blew up in your face, didn't it?

then you post this
"I seem to recall that in the leaflet we were told it would mean leaving the CU and the SM but the stupid people still decided they wanted to leave..

And clearly they failed utterly to understand the implications of doing so, which is why there is such fear of a no deal Brexit now!
And you are also forgetting they were assured by Farage and the rest of the Leave campaigners that there was no question of us having to leave either the CU or the SM
We posted video evidence to that effect, but you have forgotten that haven't you? would you like to see it again?
And this does you no credit at all does it?
"Of course the ones who are superior and possessed of a much higher intelligence have decided that we can't leave without armageddon descending on the country because it is such a useless country and the people have no worth and no talent and no inspiration and we need the EU to wipe our backsides for evermore.

It doesn't require one to be superior and possess a "much higher intelligence" to think and check before forming an opinion on the basis of propaganda in the press, and you are repeating that propaganda with the rest of that rant, for none of the Remainers have said any such thing.
They warned you of likely consequences, which it is their duty to do.

What you should be asking yourself is how much longer you can keep up this victim complex view?
As a matter of interest, which politicians have emerged from this debacle with the obvious ability to make this dream of yours come true?
The answer if of course not a single one of them.

 

[oldgroaner]

I voted to not join

Since you had by your own admission no idea of what was involved it was probably a wise move.

 

[oldgroaner]

Why is it the truth. We were told it meant leaving to SM and the CU. It was in the dodgy leaflet sent out and it was stated in many TV interviews, by leaders

Here is just one video

This is the truth,in their own words hilariously Marr makes out that they didn't stress this during the referendum campaign, just dodged the issue.
No one actually accused them of saying these things during the referendum campaign,just that they changed their minds after they exposed these view very publicly, never retracting them.

Marr would never let Corbyn get away with doing such a thing and yet here he supports it!
Hypocrite!

 

[gray198]

OG if you try hard enough I'm sure you can convince yourself that black is actually white

 

[oldgroaner]

OG if you try hard enough I'm sure you can convince yourself that black is actually white

Why would I ever want emulate what you have done?

You appear to have fallen back on silly comments again, I am obviously more aware of the difference than you will ever be, and don't try to convince myself of anything, I just look at the evidence and judge from that,and this smokescreen is simply an attempt to avoid answering the question isn't it?

Who is going to make your Brexit Dream come true?
I'll make it even harder and add, How are they going to do it?

Here for example s another of your leave campaign clowns

Who now says "The people have voted" and posted this on his Twitter account

How much of Taxpayers money on Expenses did he spend on this?

 

[oldtom]

OG if you try hard enough I'm sure you can convince yourself that black is actually white

What is that supposed to mean? He has given you truthful, cogent responses to all your childish protestations yet you cannot accept the evidence of any source other than bent, fascist politicians and the propaganda organs bought and paid for by the tory party and their sponsors.

Clearly, there is no cure for stupid and it's a true saying that, 'There's none so blind as those who will not see.'

Tom

 

[oyster]

People's Vote march: 'Hundreds of thousands' attend London protest

Protesters seeking a referendum on the final Brexit deal have attended a rally which organisers say was the "biggest" demonstration of its kind.

Young voters led the People's Vote march to London's Parliament Square, which supporters say attracted more than 600,000 people.

It was held at the same time as a pro-Brexit rally in Harrogate, led by former UKIP leader Nigel Farage.

MPs from the main parties backed the event calling for a fresh referendum.

This is something which has already been ruled out by Prime Minister Theresa May.

The People's Vote campaign said stewards on the route estimated 670,000 were taking part.

Scotland Yard said it was not able to estimate the size of the crowd.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45925542

Funny how Scotland Yard have so often been able to provide estimates of attendance in the past.

 

[oldtom]

I remember this:



British society has been made rotten through and through thanks to the message disseminated by the tory scum.

Tom