We must, with respect , choose to disagree on that topic. Your argument has certain validity, but in my opinion, and we have recent evidence of it here in ireland, the public interest of a member of parliament standing up in the house and making assertions, without fear of prosecution for libel, by well heeled individuals, trumps the potential abuse.
Brexit, for once some facts.
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If you own property... If you are in the other 35.7% of the population you pay that indirectly via rent to your landlord.
Well let's be honest that wouldn't take much doing would it??
My guess would be an ability to engage the brain before applying the fingers to a keyboard?
The allegations against Jeremy Corbyn centred upon betrayal of his country. In my view, the real betrayal of the British people has been conducted by tory politicians who have sold off our utilities and large, publicly-owned concerns to foreign companies so that the profits are enjoyed overseas.
The same tories have overseen on their watch the reduction in global status of the UK human rights record, most particularly as noted by the UN, our treatment of disabled people.
Again, the same people through various means have encouraged the rich to avoid paying taxes, meaning an even greater burden is foisted upon the poorest in the land. Indeed, the PM's husband is in a business that finds or creates the means by which rich investors may enjoy tax-free wealth expansion.
Perhaps worst of all, this tory government has been using the despicable tactic of starving the NHS, police and other public services of funding while hugely increasing the national debt.
That is betrayal!
Tom
The same tories have overseen on their watch the reduction in global status of the UK human rights record, most particularly as noted by the UN, our treatment of disabled people.
Again, the same people through various means have encouraged the rich to avoid paying taxes, meaning an even greater burden is foisted upon the poorest in the land. Indeed, the PM's husband is in a business that finds or creates the means by which rich investors may enjoy tax-free wealth expansion.
Perhaps worst of all, this tory government has been using the despicable tactic of starving the NHS, police and other public services of funding while hugely increasing the national debt.
That is betrayal!
Tom
if you follow this line of logic, you would come to the conclusion that unless people understand the issue, then they shouldn't vote.Well let's be honest that wouldn't take much doing would it??
My guess would be an ability to engage the brain before applying the fingers to a keyboard?
Extrapolating this kind of logic further, if you don't have a degree, then you should be happy with your rubbish job or if you are a woman, then you should accept a less well paid job etc.
It seems as though Jeremy Corbyn is now sick and tired of being accused of this, that and the other by the despicable scum that is the tory party, represented and disseminated by the British media
Here is the letter from Corbyn's solicitor to Ben Bradley MP:
you-need-to-read-the-letter-from-corb-s-lawyers-to-ben-bradley-tory-mp
Tom
Here is the letter from Corbyn's solicitor to Ben Bradley MP:
you-need-to-read-the-letter-from-corb-s-lawyers-to-ben-bradley-tory-mp
Tom
Yes.
Long ago I detailed an alternative governmental and voting system in this forum, you'll find it detailed within this post.
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but this goes against the idea of what democracy should be and human rights.
If I don't understand brexit the same way as you, who would decide who is less right and thus denied a vote on the subject?
Then don't let your imagination run riot.
Why should people be happy with rubbish jobs etc, just because they have a limited educational achievement?
They weren't and never will be
Ask yourself this simple question. Was Brexit a result of rational thought, or simply the expression of despair at the way the country was governed?
And what proportion of the voters appreciated what was at stake?
No one did, it was all lies.
The moral is not that people who lack education shouldn't be allowed to vote
It is that people who do have an education shouldn't be allowed to lie to them and mislead them, pretending at best that they understand a situation when in fact they didn't either, they were abusing the Public trust, by selllng them Dream that they knew was unrealistic.
Nobody understood what was at stake, and they still don't.
Worse the pro Brexit loony fringe see this as a chance to take over the nation to impose a Fascist regime and all that entails.
And why? for personal profit, not the Future of the Nation.
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I can only conclude you've misread what I posted, since my proposal was more democratic than our present system which permits highly unpopular policies.
What I proposed did not deny anyone a free vote. All they had to do was understand issues relating to the policy question, but would then be free to vote whatever way they wished, even if that seemed perverse or difficult to understand for some.
It's just a way of ensuring voting from some knowledge rather than ignorance, while not in any way interfering with free choice. The outcome would be more sensible adopted policies, in turn gaining wider support as they benefitted the people.
As now, the fine tuning and implementation of those policies would be done by our elected representatives, voted for by everyone as now.
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Let's say, for argument sake, that parliament passes a law to compel voters to understand the issue before the actual vote. Why would the same treatment not be extended to other qualities of human development beside the political comprehension: their opinion, their religious belief, their social class etc also be tested if they are compatible with the view of the elite?
whatever the reason or reasons they voted the way they did, if parliament agrees that the margin was indecisive then the right course of action is to vote again, not to exclude citizens from the vote.
Personally, I am always interested to hear from people who disagree with me. They give me a chance to do better in the next posts.
You make the assumption that there is only one conclusion to extrapolating data, which is false. This definition suffices:
extrapolate | ɪkˈstrapəleɪt, ɛkˈstrapəleɪt |
verb [with object]
extend the application of (a method or conclusion) to an unknown situation by assuming that existing trends will continue or similar methods will be applicable: the results cannot be extrapolated to other patient groups | [no object] : it is always dangerous to extrapolate from a sample.
• estimate or conclude (something) by extrapolating: the figures were extrapolated from past trends.
• Mathematics extend (a graph, curve, or range of values) by inferring unknown values from trends in the known data: the low-temperature results can be extrapolated to room temperature | (as adjective extrapolated) : a set of extrapolated values.
Tom
they are just examples of extrapolation, OT.
If the premise is to require that voters satisfies one particular condition, in this instance, a level of comprehension of the issue they are about to vote on, then it's just the thin edge of wedge of an undemocratic state. You just as well go back to the days that only some citizens had the right to vote.
What a strange view, this doesn't logically follow at all. The vote isn't in any way a part of human development and not about political comprehension, just factual comprehension. You really are not getting it, it's not about compatibility with the elite, rather the opposite. Ignorance suits the elite all too often.
Again what on earth is this about? I made no mention whatsoever about indecisive votes, or excluding citizens from votes in an indecisive issue. There is nothing indecisive about selection of policies to be adopted on a basis of the size of the vote in favour. That's the opposite of indecisive outcomes.
I don't understand what you are arguing, but it has nothing to do with what I posted.
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I refer to the margin 48/52 as possibly indecisive. If parliament takes the view that the margin was indecisive, then the correct course of action is to vote again.
I am arguing against the idea of restricting the right to vote.
To me, that will put democracy at risk and embolden dictators
People voted for brexit for a number of reasons so why single out this or that particular reason and accuse them of being ignorant (because they did not comprehend enough on that subject) or idiot for being sold a pup. Those insults and similar do not help bridging the divide.
I would advise against extrapolating data in the field of politics as there exists considerable empirical evidence to suggest that logic does not necessarily apply - the pundits, pollsters and various market researchers have had their fingers burned on several occasions over recent years.
All the best data available would have pointed to a Man City win against Wigan last week so I'd suggest that you place too much reliance upon logic when dealing with the electorate and matters of politics.
Tom
alternatives to 'Mad Max' brexit have been seen here:
https://www.ft.com/content/16bf3cfc-17c2-11e8-9376-4a6390addb44
Quote:
The Financial Times has seen a secret memo listing the options:
Hunger Games Brexit:
The version championed by both the so-called soft-Brexiters and Remainers seeking to minimise economic disruption. Under this plan, 24 children from Remain enclaves are chosen by ballot and offered each year as tributes to the European Commission in return for continued British access to the single market. The 24 are then forced to stalk each other through the Berlaymont building until there is just one survivor, who will then be offered a deputy chef de cabinet role. The UK government is pushing for a chess tournament instead of murder, but it is understood that the French and a number of MEPs are insisting on full human sacrifice, so that all nations understand the true cost of Brexit.
Fahrenheit 451 Brexit:
In this Brexit, the fire service no longer exists to put out fires, but to burn books and reports issued by the Bank of England, the Treasury and any other economic experts. The populace now relies solely on TV for entertainment. The most popular daily show is Good Morning Britain with Rod Liddle and Katie Hopkins. Remainers are forced to live as outcasts in the countryside, where they spend their time busily learning economic reports by heart so that they can still keep quoting them decades after Brexit has happened.
Blade Runner Brexit:
A dark vision of Britain’s future in which everyone is forced to eat from roadside food stalls stocked with chlorinated chicken imported under a groundbreaking trade deal negotiated with the US. Teams of armed cops are recruited to hunt down replicants — European citizens who look just like normal human beings and who were brought in to work undesirable jobs in off-world colonies such as fruit-picking farms. But they fled those roles and are now hiding out in Pret A Manger. It is always raining.
Terminator Brexit:
Perhaps the most ambitious of all Brexits. This sees a robotic terminator sent back from the future to the year 1972 to murder Sir Edward Heath before he can sign the Treaty of Accession. The terminator, a well dressed Brit with a cut-glass accent, has memorable catchphrases such as “You can count upon my expeditious return” and “Cheerio, baby”. His success means the UK never actually joined the EU and so angry Remainers never existed. A sequel will see future rebels send back their own terminator in the shape of Nick Clegg to foment a pro-European movement which will seek to join the EU some time after Serbia.
RoboCop Brexit:
The promised frictionless technological solution for policing the Irish border. RoboCops are deployed in border towns such as Derry and Culmore and are able to scan all vehicles for illicit consignments. This plan is currently on hold as Sinn Fein insists all RoboCops speak Gaelic while the Democratic Unionists are demanding they also be fluent in Ulster Scots.
The Matrix Brexit:
UK citizens are implanted with devices which make them believe everything is normal and that life is good. Several prominent Leavers have already plugged in and they say it is great.
Real life Brexit:
The country is committed to leaving the EU in 12 months but, after a year of arguing, the cabinet seems unable to agree even a basic framework for how it will work. Some consider this the most dystopian vision of all.
----
end quote
https://www.ft.com/content/16bf3cfc-17c2-11e8-9376-4a6390addb44
Quote:
The Financial Times has seen a secret memo listing the options:
Hunger Games Brexit:
The version championed by both the so-called soft-Brexiters and Remainers seeking to minimise economic disruption. Under this plan, 24 children from Remain enclaves are chosen by ballot and offered each year as tributes to the European Commission in return for continued British access to the single market. The 24 are then forced to stalk each other through the Berlaymont building until there is just one survivor, who will then be offered a deputy chef de cabinet role. The UK government is pushing for a chess tournament instead of murder, but it is understood that the French and a number of MEPs are insisting on full human sacrifice, so that all nations understand the true cost of Brexit.
Fahrenheit 451 Brexit:
In this Brexit, the fire service no longer exists to put out fires, but to burn books and reports issued by the Bank of England, the Treasury and any other economic experts. The populace now relies solely on TV for entertainment. The most popular daily show is Good Morning Britain with Rod Liddle and Katie Hopkins. Remainers are forced to live as outcasts in the countryside, where they spend their time busily learning economic reports by heart so that they can still keep quoting them decades after Brexit has happened.
Blade Runner Brexit:
A dark vision of Britain’s future in which everyone is forced to eat from roadside food stalls stocked with chlorinated chicken imported under a groundbreaking trade deal negotiated with the US. Teams of armed cops are recruited to hunt down replicants — European citizens who look just like normal human beings and who were brought in to work undesirable jobs in off-world colonies such as fruit-picking farms. But they fled those roles and are now hiding out in Pret A Manger. It is always raining.
Terminator Brexit:
Perhaps the most ambitious of all Brexits. This sees a robotic terminator sent back from the future to the year 1972 to murder Sir Edward Heath before he can sign the Treaty of Accession. The terminator, a well dressed Brit with a cut-glass accent, has memorable catchphrases such as “You can count upon my expeditious return” and “Cheerio, baby”. His success means the UK never actually joined the EU and so angry Remainers never existed. A sequel will see future rebels send back their own terminator in the shape of Nick Clegg to foment a pro-European movement which will seek to join the EU some time after Serbia.
RoboCop Brexit:
The promised frictionless technological solution for policing the Irish border. RoboCops are deployed in border towns such as Derry and Culmore and are able to scan all vehicles for illicit consignments. This plan is currently on hold as Sinn Fein insists all RoboCops speak Gaelic while the Democratic Unionists are demanding they also be fluent in Ulster Scots.
The Matrix Brexit:
UK citizens are implanted with devices which make them believe everything is normal and that life is good. Several prominent Leavers have already plugged in and they say it is great.
Real life Brexit:
The country is committed to leaving the EU in 12 months but, after a year of arguing, the cabinet seems unable to agree even a basic framework for how it will work. Some consider this the most dystopian vision of all.
----
end quote
Sadly, the UK government, to achieve savings, decided to close a large number of semi-secure mental hospitals and pretended to the general public that the patients reliant on the services provided by those institutions could be managed under a new, 'Care in the Community' programme.
Since that time, we have been living with idiots in our midst which undoubtedly saves money from the NHS budget. One main downside is that numerous deaths have been caused by some of those people. Moreover, the identification of other vulnerable people who would be better placed in secure care has diminished as less attention is paid to the mental health aspect of holistic health care in the UK.
I think the facts as they are now known about the prospects for the UK after 'Brexit' should be published and another referendum conducted to ensure that public opinion still supports leaving the EU. I shan't attempt to extrapolate from the information available but I do feel confident that the result would be vastly different from last time.
Tom
This describes very well what capitalism is about:
Ye will know them by the friends they keep!
Tom
Ye will know them by the friends they keep!
Tom