Brexit, for once some facts.

tillson

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May 29, 2008
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I read in the papers today that the NHS funding / staff shortage is so bad that one major hospital is considering delaying curative cancer treatment and reducing palliative care by up to 30%.

I have seen this first hand when my mother died in hospital due to a lung tumour last summer. Patients are being put into side rooms, alone, the door is closed and staff re-enter the room many hours later to see if they are still alive. End of life pain relief and care is not being administered because the staff are working flat out to try and do something for those who have some chance of survival.

To put it bluntly, in her final hours, my mother, who was semi-conscious, was slowly drowning in fluid which was building up. I had discussed “the end” with the consultant treating her and knew what to expect. The plan was to effectively render her unconscious with morphine based pain relief drugs, which would most likely bring her life to an end peacefully. The problem that I hadn’t foreseen was that this major hospital, which serves a city, only had two S2 doctors on duty overnight. An S2 Doctor is a Doctor 2 years out of medical school. Of course it took hours to get one of them to my mother, when they arrived they knew absolutely nothing about her case and initially wanted to send her for Physiotherapy to help her breathing. I had to brief the doctor regarding the end of life plan. It was in the notes, but the Doctor was clearly too busy to wade through the notes of every patient.

After many hours of unnecessary suffering on my mother’s part, the Doctor eventually took the correct course of action. I slept at the hospital in the side room with my mother until she died. If I hadn’t been there, she would have been left in that room, alone, to suffer all night. It was only my persistence that caused a Doctor to see her and act upon the consultant’s plan.

This is no criticism of the NHS staff, they were doing more than their best, in fact the staff are so good and hard working, no MP is fit to utter the letters NHS. The simple fact is there are too many patients and not enough staff and staff costs money. In fact I saw the S2 Doctor as I left hospital the following morning. She looked totally exhausted and ill. She was still on duty and I had to wonder if her fatigue levels were beyond what is safe.

Is it now time to use the foreign aid budget to fund the NHS? This staff shortage is going to take at least 2 years to fix if we start recruiting today. Do we need to only treat people here working in the UK or UK passport holders? Health tourism is absorbing resources, how much is debatable, but in the NHS’s present state, even a little is far too much.
 
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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As I've said before, those responsible for the NHS Brexit Bus, must be made answerable.
But the bus has absolutely nothing to do with our present situation.

The NHS would be as it is now with a remain vote.

Simple fact is NHS needs more funding or fewer patients. Government should be working to that goal irrespective of leave or remain.
 
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Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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Is it now time to use the foreign aid budget to fund the NHS?
no. The two issues are separate.
The answer is to take the NHS funding out of short term politics.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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As I've said before, those responsible for the NHS Brexit Bus, must be made answerable.
They certainly need to provide an update. What’s the plan, when and how will the £350 000 000 be delivered?

The situation I described above happened whilst we are fully paid up functioning members of the EU. After we leave, the situation will either improve or deteriorate. They told us it will improve, but those are just words, the time has now come for the mechanics, the nuts & bolts explanations of how the improvements will be delivered.
 
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tillson

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May 29, 2008
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no. The two issues are separate.
The answer is to take the NHS funding out of short term politics.
£12 000 000 000 is a lot of money and could do a lot of good for many people in the UK. It could prevent a lot of suffering for uk resident.
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Is it now time to use the foreign aid budget to fund the NHS?
It is certainly time, way past time in fact, to channel taxpayers' money where it is most needed.

It defies logic that a nation, still suffering austerity, should be sending monetary aid anywhere outside the UK. We have done our bit for peoples elsewhere as long as I have been around and there are several charities funnelling donations to various places overseas, money that would be better deployed in the UK.

Tillson, your experience of your mum's final days echoes those of my late wife who lasted 35 days in hospital being kept alive by machines until it was discovered that the left side of her brain was gone completely and most of the right side too, following a major stroke in the hospital on day one. She was 56.

I cannot fault the staff who looked after her but I was always aware that there was more work than those on duty could cope with and that situation has become more acute over recent years. It pains me to see taxpayers' money being squandered on military hardware and weaponry, ostensibly to protect the nation, while people are dying through lack of care, sleeping on the streets, turning to suicide when all of that could easily be remedied by prioritising funding to more relevant destinations, such as health care, social housing, job creation and so on.

The nonsense of tory vanity projects such as HS2/3 is offensive to me as is this apology for a government's determination to remove the UK from the EU, whatever the cost. The spectacle of these last few days has further demonstrated, were any further proof needed, that the woman posing as PM is thoroughly incompetent and couldn't organise a cocktail party in an off-licence.

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Tom
 
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SHAN

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Oct 13, 2017
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fewer patients.
What are you suggesting euthanasia ?

"fewer patients "
This, I fear is the aim of the current government. Private healthcare, a two tier system is already emerging, and that is the goal of the conservatives, and has been for a number of years. The "bus" is connected, because the party members behind it are the same as those who want privatisation. It has become apparent that the while thing was a "ghost" claim made with no factual backup. I see what is happening with the NHS and it is criminal. Increasing urban populations, decreasing services. In the county I stay, in one area, there were local "cottage" hospitals that provided emergency care for the ill, now, in some areas, a one way journey to the nearest hospital is over 90 miles. Psychiatric services are also being hit hard. Units being closed down and staff becoming totally demoralised, and who suffers ? The Patient. These people who "govern" us are failing us, end of.
 
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anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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The European Union
I think Tom has hit the nail on the head: you have been spending too much money on Yankee wars you cannot afford and which were often started under false pretences rather than spending it at home on infrastructure.

tillson France has health tourism on both ends of the scale - UK patients taking benefit from the EU wide health coverage they now enjoy on one end and very rich patients from outside the EU who inject much needed funds into the kitty.

Austerity is euthanasia... A major flu epidemic of a very nasty strain with your NHS at the end of its tether and you could see numbers like back in 1918. Look at the French heat wave of 2003 with a reasonably well equipped health service but totally unprepared for such an event.
 

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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Meanwhile we teeter on the brink of disaster From the Guardian.
"
Davis and Hammond make plea to Germany in pursuit of Brexit deal
Chancellor and Brexit secretary seek deal to avoid catastrophe for Britain’s financial services industry after UK leaves EU
"
Britain’s decision to leave the EU has already caused havoc in the financial services sector with thousands of jobs in corporate banking, asset management and insurance being moved to Frankfurt, Luxembourg, Amsterdam, Paris and Dublin.

The Hammond-Davis remarks and speech by the chancellor in Berlin on Wednesday night are the opening shots in what promises to be a challenging 10 months of negotiation on the final Brexit deal.

The EU’s Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier warned the UK last month: “There is no place [for financial services]. There is not a single trade agreement that is open to financial services. It doesn’t exist.”

Barnier said the result would be a consequence of “the red lines that the British have chosen themselves. In leaving the single market, they lose the financial services passport”.

Time to Exit Brexit.
 

Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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£12 000 000 000 is a lot of money and could do a lot of good for many people in the UK. It could prevent a lot of suffering for uk resident.
most of that money does not go to the needy though, but used to market British foreign policy.
It's a bit like the EU contribution, a lot of smoke and mirrors.

only 16% of that budget goes to humanitarian aid.

https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-spending-foreign-aid/
 
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Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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I think Tom has hit the nail on the head: you have been spending too much money on Yankee wars you cannot afford and which were often started under false pretences rather than spending it at home on infrastructure.

tillson France has health tourism on both ends of the scale - UK patients taking benefit from the EU wide health coverage they now enjoy on one end and very rich patients from outside the EU who inject much needed funds into the kitty.

Austerity is euthanasia... A major flu epidemic of a very nasty strain with your NHS at the end of its tether and you could see numbers like back in 1918. Look at the French heat wave of 2003 with a reasonably well equipped health service but totally unprepared for such an event.
Yes, I agree with Tom's sentiments this time.

Shan
Ofcourse I don't propose euthanasia. We obviously cant get fewer patients so the only way forward is more funding and probably better efficiency. However, my experiences have been nothing but positive with NHS. My own recent bad luck has been dealt with incredibly, without doubt our local hospital saved my wife's life , spotting cancer very early and treating it quickly along with saving grandson's life when he was born with meningitis.( He,s 4 now and enjoys perfect health)
So I have nothing but admiration for entire system and dont think either side should use it as a political pawn especially for things from the past, which the bus now is. What's done is done. Lets get on with next year , not scoring points over last.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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To put it bluntly, in her final hours, my mother, who was semi-conscious, was slowly drowning in fluid which was building up. I had discussed “the end” with the consultant treating her and knew what to expect. The plan was to effectively render her unconscious with morphine based pain relief drugs, which would most likely bring her life to an end peacefully.
My mother died in identical circumstances, but not in hospital. When they couldn't control the fluid buildup any more they sent her home in an ambulance to eventually die there. There was no plan, we were eventually fortunate enough to find a Locum one evening who administered the large morphine dose to finally end her suffering.

NHS poor treatment for economy reasons has been going on for many years, I was a victim of it in 1994/5. An operation I really need was avoided by a bodge treatment developed for that purpose. It wasn't a cure, just a cost avoidance by alleviation. Totally short sighted since after many years of growing inconvenience I eventually had to have the operation on the NHS 19 years later, when it was more complicated and less effective, probably more expensive too.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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We obviously cant get fewer patients
In a sense we can, every A & E suffers an extraordinary number of time wasters.

Just watch the A & E programs on TV and see the queues in the waiting rooms, many having something minimal wrong, a minor cut, splinter, sprain etc., all things that can be easily dealt with at home.

The scale of their emergency can be judged from their chatting and laughing with friends, playing electronic games, making numerous phone calls, stuffing their faces from vending machines and even ordering takeaways to be delivered to the waiting room.

People who suffer a genuine emergency don't do any of those things, they are too ill.

I think Triage should be sending many of them away to more appropriate destinations, such as minor treatment clinics, GPs, pharmacists or just home to be patient enough for the minor condition to pass.
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Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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In a sense we can, every A & E suffers an extraordinary number of time wasters.

Just watch the A & E programs on TV and see the queues in the waiting rooms, many having something minimal wrong, a minor cut, splinter, sprain etc., all things that can be easily dealt with at home.

The scale of their emergency can be judged from their chatting and laughing with friends, playing electronic games, making numerous phone calls, stuffing their faces from vending machines and even ordering takeaways to be delivered to the waiting room.

People who suffer a genuine emergency don't do any of those things, they are too ill.

I think Triage should be sending many of them away to more appropriate destinations, such as minor treatment clinics, GPs, pharmacists or just home to be patient enough for the minor condition to pass.
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I agree with this Flecc. About ten years ago I fed a finger,my own, into a Thicknesser/ planing machine. It chopped 6mm off my finger. ( surgeon measured difference, could never figure that one, machine was set at 0.5?)
Went to A&E and they put me and a bloke in same room ( we,d both " chopped" bits off fingers) We had a I,ll show you mine if you show me yours moment. Mine looked like a mini piza with a white( bone) centre. He had taken a sliver of skin off , at most half a mm. I,d have taped his up with electricians tape and carried on working...

I returned to house I was working on planning on clearing mess up.( and putting machine away, for good) When I left there had been a pile of shavings containing quite a bit of blood and a finger end.
There wasn't a trace of blood or any finger to be found....my chocolate lab had got there first. ( honest, true story) He,d eaten the blood stained shavings, finger and even cleaned floor and machine.
 
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But the bus has absolutely nothing to do with our present situation.

The NHS would be as it is now with a remain vote.
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Well not quite.. the collapse in the value of the £ has put the NHS bills up by quite a bit, and they are also not getting the same number of staff applications from the EU.

That's just 2 negatives from the vote, and we've not even left yet.
 
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Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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it may be time to introduce a minimum charge for hospital treatments to reduce the amount of time wasters.
Say £20 for A&E?
 
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Well not quite.. the collapse in the value of the £ has put the NHS bills up by quite a bit, and they are also not getting the same number of staff applications from the EU.

That's just 2 negatives from the vote, and we've not even left yet.
That still changes nothing or helps decisions moving forward. Its still clutching to out desire to lay blame.

What was said on bus has nothing to do with how we deal with or reject brexit.
The only questions should be yes or no and then how . Not who , why or what happened. We have current situation to deal with. End of.
 

tillson

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May 29, 2008
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it may be time to introduce a minimum charge for hospital treatments to reduce the amount of time wasters.
Say £20 for A&E?
I don’t think that will work and to some £20 will hurt, maybe even put them off seeking help that they badly need. Although I suspect that most of the time wasters come from the, £20 is too much bracket, we can’t really go down that route.

I think we need very strict regime of filtering at the doors of admission is to A&E and then a second stage of filtering based on the circumstances of the medical condition. For example, drunkenness or being fat with a bloater related illness could be classed as a self inflicted injury and that person could be moved down the priority list.

The above would need to be backed up with strong support for those at the sharp end making the admission decisions. At the same time, some form of government advertising campaign to vilify A&E time wasters would need to be running. Turn A&E time wasting into an anti-social event such as drink driving & speeding.

However, I can’t see this happening with the present bunch of clowns. I think they want a failing NHS so that it makes the case for privatisation easier to sell.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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it may be time to introduce a minimum charge for hospital treatments to reduce the amount of time wasters.
Say £20 for A&E?
I've made a similar suggestion in here previously, for a higher £50, but not for those triage deem an genuine A & E emergency.

That would be a big deterrent to the very minor injury time wasters.

P.S. I see Tillson has said similar, but the charge does need to be high enough to be a deterrent.
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