Brexit, for once some facts.

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
As I see it this is like the dissolution of the monasteries and the reformation in Henry 8ths time . .. a belief that the bigger organisation was wrong, choosing a radical solution to solve an immediate problem then realising that there was a land grab and money to be stolen and justifying after the event...
The only difference is that there is now no new world to discover and exploit
Nice analogy 'Danidl' and I liked the summary of the position illustrated in the rest of the post!

I do find it extraordinary that the 'Brexidiots' in this thread still cannot come up with any good reason why the UK and its citizens will be better off outside of the EU. Instead, they choose to attack those who criticise and stand opposed to their selfish, racist desires.

Just to be clear: NOT ONE GOOD REASON!

Tom
 
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flecc

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I am not my brother's keeper.

Flecc
So when a fellow remainer attacks leavers,tories,or who ever you feel no responsibility even tho they hide behind remain sentiments and into bargain destroy your own stance.??? ( remainers bringing in anti capitalist, anti fascist,anti tory, anti Brexit arguments have ruined many worthwhile points yourself and KTM have made.. You dont think this attitude has detracted from remain position ? I suspect it has.
I have to accept this disadvantage of equality of free speech.

I hope that you've noticed that I don't attack those persons who post opinions opposed to mine, I only argue with their opinions where they conflict with mine.

So in the interests of treating all equally, I don't attack those with some of my opinions but expressed in ways I don't agree with. They have the right to post as they do, however distasteful you or I might find it.
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oldgroaner

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I am not my brother's keeper.

Flecc
So when a fellow remainer attacks leavers,tories,or who ever you feel no responsibility even tho they hide behind remain sentiments and into bargain destroy your own stance.??? ( remainers bringing in anti capitalist, anti fascist,anti tory, anti Brexit arguments have ruined many worthwhile points yourself and KTM have made.. You dont think this attitude has detracted from remain position ? I suspect it has.
Explain yourself. Who do you imagine you are? You rant and rave about everything in sight, and try and impose your idea of how and what people think according to rules you have made up, but change on a daily basis.
Here's a thought to allow briefly to pass through your mind.
There are no "Fellow Remainers"
You are dealing with something new from your point of view.
Independent thinkers.
Imagine that! people who don't trot out propaganda secondhand and even hold conflicting ideas to each other!
The remainers on here do not belong to a "Group" of any sort impelled by a juvenile excuse for a religion like Brexit, but have minds of their own,
The only thing we have in common is we clearly see how stupid the notion of Brexit is and what backward and primitive thinking is behind it.
We are "our own men (or women) as the case may be.
Gloriously divided as to motivation and opinion, not a mass to be manipulated by the media,
After all we aren't trying to sell a stupid idea are we, that is the unfortunate position you are in.

And still after all this time the only rational reason that has emerged for Brexit is this
It will avoid the EU wrecking the Tax avoiding fiddles of the Uber Rich.
 
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oldgroaner

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Did you actually read the article - and understand it? It's


This obsession with removing the privacy of the rich is misplaced anger

TIM STANLEY

6 NOVEMBER 2017 • 7:27PM


We're obsessed with the goings on of the rich, yet we ignore those who are truly powerful

We mistrust the rich and their power, yet while the state has far more influence over our lives, we do not held it to the same standards

When the Paradise Papers story broke on Sunday, I watched the BBC News channel engage in some flagrant editorialising. The Queen’s private estate invested a sum of money offshore in 2005, which prompted a chorus of “it doesn’t look good”. “Oh no, not good”. “Not good at all”. Well, as the nudist said to the dog walker, if you don’t like what you see, don’t look!

“This desire to know what people do with their money is unhealthy and it has just one motivation: to squeeze them

Before we get onto the question of tax privacy, let’s shoot down this absurd idea that Her Majesty is guilty of something. First, offshore investments are legal. Second, Her Majesty pays tax on all her income. Third, the cash that generates said income is managed not by her but by the Duchy of Lancaster, which is technically run by a member of the Cabinet known as the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.

In 2005, that would’ve been a Labour Party appointee. So, while the Left is thrilled at the prospect that Her Majesty is the pirate queen of high finance, blame lies not with the monarch but with politicians and speculators. If blame is the right word because, as I said, none of this was actually illegal.

Is it any of our business? In the case of the Queen, maybe, as she is a figure of considerable public interest. But, on the whole, no. This desire to know what people do with their money is unhealthy and it has just one motivation: to squeeze them for every penny they’ve got.

When I was a young socialist I’d have said that was a jolly good idea. We all benefit from public spending, and the more you’ve got the more you should contribute. But as an older, greyer cynic I take the view that the rich shouldn’t have to pay unfairly for the mistakes made by the state.

The state has grown and grown, with no obvious improvement in competence, and the tax share of the wealthy has trebled since the Seventies. This is unsustainable and, in acknowledgement of that reality, moderate governments have long tolerated certain generous tax arrangements to stop the golden goose from migrating permanently abroad.

If a radical Labour government came in and closed the loopholes, investors would relocate altogether. In a roundabout way, tax havens keep pressure on politicians not to raise rates to unreasonable levels and, were the world to eradicate them, the burden here at home would probably go sky high.

If we must suffer the tax haven, why not go for full transparency? Because what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, and if the super-rich have to fling open their accounts to the rest of the world, you and I will have to do the same, too.

All that will fly out of mine, I hasten to add, is a couple of moths. The only tax haven a poor man like me is ever likely to use is the spot under my mattress. But that’s not the point: privacy is a principle that’s worth losing a bit of tax income to protect.

That’s not a very politically correct thing to write in an age of populism, but I stand by it. We are led to believe that the rich have too much power and influence, but they cannot compete with a state that increasingly has both the technology and the will to examine and regulate every aspect of our lives.

“We’ve all become so used to paying Big Brother to tell us what to do that we’ve ceased to notice it

Take driving a car. To earn the right to crawl along the M25 behind a horsebox, you have to pay for and pass both a theory and practical test, purchase insurance, get an MOT, and cough up for vehicle and fuel tax. The Government not only tells you what speed to drive at but regulates it punitively with cameras – which adds insult to injury given that many of our roads are about as well maintained as the surface of the moon.

We’ve all become so used to paying Big Brother to tell us what to do that we’ve ceased to notice it. And yet the nerve of the state is breathtaking. It is the state that distributes the Queen’s taxes, a branch of the state that arguably deserves responsibility for how it managed her income and now it is the state, via the BBC, that investigates and exposes it.

A line must be drawn. It’s the historic mission of the Conservative Party to draw it. They are supposed to be the people who resist wars against business and wealth, defend due process and protect the rights of the individual.

In recent years, however, they’ve endorsed raw emotionalism, terrified by the belief that what Labour says about tax, justice or the welfare system is what the voters believe, too. Well, they need to stop reading Twitter and talk to some of their more rational constituents.

Yes, every time the Tories take a stand against tax populism, they get horrid headlines in The Guardian, but they have won elections over and over again because the voters understand the facts of life better than Labour and the many agents of the state do.

For decades we have seen the expanding power of the police, teachers, civil servants, social workers and tax collectors, all protected by deference thought due to public servants and the claim that they are acting in the public interest. Who will act in the individual’s interest? The Tories must do so fast, before we’re all forced to go and live in, oh let’s say, Bermuda – drinking piña coladas beneath a tax-free sun.
What a fascinating mindset you have, on the one hand you complain quite rightly in many cases of abuses , yet vote to return the very people who impose surveillance on us and initiate the trouble in the middle east that allegedly makes the surveillance necessary.
You and Zlatan have a lot in common
Confusion of cause and effect and Friends from enemies.
 
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Zlatan

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I have to accept this disadvantage of equality of free speech.

I hope that you've noticed that I don't attack those persons who post opinions opposed to mine, I only argue with their opinions where they conflict with mine.

So in the interests of treating all equally, I don't attack those with some of my opinions but expressed in ways I don't agree with. They have the right to post as they do, however distasteful you or I might find it.
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Well put flecc.
 
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flecc

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The remainers on here do not belong to a "Group" of any sort impelled by a juvenile excuse for a religion like Brexit, but have minds of their own,
The only thing we have in common is we clearly see how stupid the notion of Brexit is and what backward and primitive thinking is behind it.
Absolutely. You, Old Tom and I agree on the disadvantages of Brexit, but have opinions on other matters that will often conflict. I doubt we even have a common opinion on the advantages of Remaining, all having our own set of reasons why it's the best option.
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Zlatan

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You seem to know more about Corbyn,s and Labours stance on Brexit than the party itself.. This is a small extract from commentary about Septembers party conference.

"There will now be no vote on Brexit at this conference – a ludicrous state of affairs. How can Labour claim to be a government-in-waiting if it dodges the biggest issues of the time and actively fears the debate within its own party? It does not bode well."

Now either Labour have not decided what mood of remainers is and cant judge level of support...or they want to leave... Saying its simple when its anything but is burying your head in sand. Sad fact is nobody is actually representing remains wishes or politicians have not got a clue what they are.
Labour or Corbyn have yet to decide their own thoughts around Brexit. That is utter madness at this late stage and people within labour are saying same. Dont forget many labour are still firm Bennite and strong EU sceptics. That's why its ludicrous to blame Tories for leaving. Tories are historically remainers...euro sceptics have tended to come from other side of house. That's why making issue a Tory/ Labour debate is flawed.
Remainers need to prioritize what they want around remaining, forget the crusades, and get somebody to represent their views before its too late...
 
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KTM
You seem to know more about Corbyn,s and Labours stance on Brexit than the party itself.. This us a small extract from commentary about septembers party conference.
"There will now be no vote on Brexit at this conference – a ludicrous state of affairs. How can Labour claim to be a government-in-waiting if it dodges the biggest issues of the time and actively fears the debate within its own party? It does not bode well."

Now eithe Labour have not decided what mood of remainers is and cant judge level of support...or they want to leave... Saying its simple when its anything but is burying your head in sand. Sad fact is nobody is actually representing remains wishes or politicians have not got a clue what they are.
I am quite close contact with my Labour MP and I get daily updates from a number of insiders within the Party. So Yes I know a snippet of information from a day at the conference isn't going to reflect the party position, because its also evolving as they try to balance the mood of the UK, their members, their voters and their MPs.

Currently I think their position is one that can at best be described as flexible.

But they are saying, they'll respect the will of the people despite the fact that the leader and majority of their members want to stay.

But a day is a long time in politics, things could change, and to assume they won't would be naive.
 
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flecc

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Tories are historically remainers...euro sceptics have tended to come from other side of house. That's why making issue a Tory/ Labour debate is flawed.
Agreed, but as OG posted a short while ago, we are all independent and I'll add to that, of all political persuasions. The only thing we have in common is our certainty that Brexit is a very big mistake.

So it's not possible to have a political party who represent us all on the Remain side. That leaves only the option to express our dissatisfaction and obtain some compensation from knowing how Brexiters will share in the suffering due to the Brexit they caused.
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PeterL

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What a fascinating mindset you have, on the one hand you complain quite rightly in many cases of abuses , yet vote to return the very people who impose surveillance on us and initiate the trouble in the middle east that allegedly makes the surveillance necessary.
You and Zlatan have a lot in common
Confusion of cause and effect and Friends from enemies.
This is such a ridiculous position you take. I have already explained to you that I am not binary, I am my own man and form my own opinions. It is not for you or anyone else to make wild assumptions, as you do all the time. Fortunately I'm not alone on this thread, yes, that does means with those that don't necessarily agree with me or I them - on some things. Mutual respect I think it's called and I would say the only way to progress this or indeed any other argument / difference of opinion?
 

oldgroaner

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Agreed, but as OG posted a short while ago, we are all independent and I'll add to that, of all political persuasions. The only thing we have in common is our certainty that Brexit is a very big mistake.

So it's not possible to have a political party who represent us all on the Remain side. That leaves only the option to express our dissatisfaction and obtain some compensation from knowing how Brexiters will share in the suffering due to the Brexit they caused.
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Absolutely flecc i love it when you go all Groucho on us"
 

PeterL

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Aug 19, 2017
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Dundee
Agreed, but as OG posted a short while ago, we are all independent and I'll add to that, of all political persuasions. The only thing we have in common is our certainty that Brexit is a very big mistake.

So it's not possible to have a political party who represent us all on the Remain side. That leaves only the option to express our dissatisfaction and obtain some compensation from knowing how Brexiters will share in the suffering due to the Brexit they caused.
.
It was a well put and good read, but we still don't agree over Brexit.
 
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oldgroaner

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This is such a ridiculous position you take. I have already explained to you that I am not binary, I am my own man and form my own opinions. It is not for you or anyone else to make wild assumptions, as you do all the time. Fortunately I'm not alone on this thread, yes, that does means with those that don't necessarily agree with me or I them - on some things. Mutual respect I think it's called and I would say the only way to progress this or indeed any other argument / difference of opinion?
No problem there I have every respect for you as a person, your opinions and politics however are fair game.
 
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oldgroaner

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This is such a ridiculous position you take. I have already explained to you that I am not binary, I am my own man and form my own opinions. It is not for you or anyone else to make wild assumptions, as you do all the time. Fortunately I'm not alone on this thread, yes, that does means with those that don't necessarily agree with me or I them - on some things. Mutual respect I think it's called and I would say the only way to progress this or indeed any other argument / difference of opinion?
The problem is that they are contradictory how can you complain and then put the culprits back in power, knowing full well what they will do?
 
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tillson

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Didn't you notice that the tories lost their majority in the general election? That was our Remainers fight back, and we near as dammit made it. Next time we emphatically will.
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I’m not convinced that the fact that the Conservatives lost their majority was down to Brexit. May is not a likeable personality, possesses an unattractive smugness, is stubborn, a poor listener, a bad communicator and has the appearance of something constructed from the sweepings up off an autopsy room floor. They will only ever become increasingly unpopular whilst-ever that thing is their leader.
 
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I’m not convinced that the fact that the Conservatives lost their majority was down to Brexit. May is not a likeable personality, possesses an unattractive smugness, is stubborn, a poor listener, a bad communicator and has the appearance of something constructed from the sweepings up off an autopsy room floor. They will only ever become increasingly unpopular whilst-ever that thing is their leader.
The collapse of the UKIP vote must have gone somewhere... they seem to like the qualities you've just described.
 
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Zlatan

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So the biggest decision our country has probably ever faced and as yet the Labour party and or Corbyn have yet to make a decision over it ? It simply amazes me that remainers see that as acceptable. How on earth can anyone decide to support labour when they take this stance ?
It is,as you said. Simple, every other person in country knows but both our opposition party and its leader are at best being guarded...at worst full of indecision and what's more to point leaving remainers unsure of wether they have representation or not. Labour are part of the problem not the cure at the moment.
The simple fact is the issue of remain or leave has torn the major parties apart, making strange bedfellows of some and odd enemies of others.
 
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