Brexit, for once some facts.

PeterL

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Aug 19, 2017
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but we expect a lot more from our politicians to lead us.
JRM's views are simplistic. It's OK for a guy who did History at uni to be simple minded when it comes to economy and tax but we demand a lot more from our clever people.
I suggest you read some introduction to keynesian economics. We can discuss the benefit of bipartisan approach to the economy.
OK let us leave JRM out of this, quite white why you mentioned him again I'm unsure. Also, let us leave your view of economics out of this too - we really don't need it to run a country or an economy. We need a goal, together with good impartial advice to enable the necessary decisions to be made. It also helps if you surround yourself with capable people able to focus on the task in hand.The people that lead our country do not need to be intellectual experts in anything, Experts really are two a penny, maybe more? They need a good team of civil servants. They need vision and dare I say, the ability to see through the self-serving that surround them. Fortunately, we do have good civil servants at the top of the pile.

A Government is surely not elected to run the country? I wonder if that is what you left aligned people actually think? If so, then no wonder you get your knickers in a twist. I agreed with OG, not for the first time, that most of them couldn't run a whelk-store. They don't run things they manage, others do the work, they just take the credit. It's the way the world works.

Can't help myself but I'm reminded that a degree in History is probably very useful for a Politician.
 
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Woosh

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Keynesian economics is not that difficult to understand
That is why I suggest PeterL to take a look.
The problem is JRM is simplistic. Let me take his first point:

he instruments of government are there to serve not to command. The random mass of individual decisions will better suit the comfort of the nation than the careful direction of resources from Whitehall. I am not the first to point out that, every day in London, 10 million lunches are served without the need for ministerial involvement.
Of course it's true that 10 million lunches are served in London without the need for ministerial involvement, but that is only apparent need, when you look closely, these meals are cooked by people who need a place to live, schools to take their children to, hospitals in case they or their relatives are sick, protection from the police, the law, the army and so on.
A country needs a well organised society. You can't do that by simplifying the apparatus because you don't understand what they are for. If you wish to do so, then the first step is to find out why they are there in the first place and become very well acquainted with it before thinking of 'improving' it or worse, dismantling it.
The point is, the conservative sells a poorly constructed idea of smaller government equals less taxes, less waste. Let's take the NHS as an example. If you want better service, you have to spend as much as the French and the Germans or the Americans. However, the NHS is not perfect by a long way. You have 4 millions patients currently waiting for elective surgery. How much does the impact of their declining health cost the NHS in the future because they are waiting?
Good planning is needed, we need clever people working in a bi-partisan approach. Not austerity.
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
[QUOTE="A country needs a well organised society..[/QUOTE]

Well at least we have been warned - sounds a touch like Communism to me. As I said earlier I do not want Politicians, or their servants, telling me what to do.
 

Electrifying Cycles

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Jun 4, 2011
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The American system is poor, cost them much more than as as a proportion of GDP but some of the outcomes are woeful. Very poor value for money. But the general point about you get what you pay for is correct. The Japanese do some good stuff on keeping costs down while offering good healthcare. Plus there are some countries doing good work in Europe but no country is perfect.
 
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Wicky

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"10 million lunches are served without the need for ministerial involvement."



The Minister of Agriculture, John Gummer

The daughter of a friend of the former agriculture minister John Gummer, who famously tried to prove beef was safe by encouraging his four-year-old daughter to eat a burger, has died of the human form of mad cow disease.

and who can forget Edwina Curry and eggs- the junior health minister’s remarks led to a drastic fall in egg sales and eventually her resignation.- she occasionally pipes up now and again...

Currie had become junior health minister in 1986 – and swiftly made her mark with outspoken comments about Aids, the elderly and the diet (and “ignorance”) of Northerners. But it was her 1988 claim about the risk of salmonella in eggs which led to her ministerial downfall.

 

Woosh

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sounds a touch like Communism to me.
Peter, I can assure you that I am anything but a communist.
that's not a bad approximation.
We've been living on a ponzi scheme ever since the first coin got invented, well before paper money, IOUs, banks and cheques, M2, M3 and M4.
 
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PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
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Dundee
Peter, I can assure you that I am anything but a communist.

that's not a bad approximation.
We've been living on a ponzi scheme ever since the first coin got invented, well before paper money, IOUs, banks and cheques, M2, M3 and M4.
Didn't mean you personally, I've been to Germany: the trains run on time; no one walks on the grass; the trees, in the parks, have names, birthdays; no one jay walks. It's different but it's not England, I don't live there and I don't want to live there. I like England, yet find myself in Scotland - need I say more.
 

homemoz

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Now, I haven't posted on here for a while - trying to break the habit. But....I can't beieve what I am reading about the Conservative Party. I'm sorry PeterL but in my experience this idea of the Tory Party being opposed to top down management is completely wrong. I worked in the NHS for over 30 years, a number of these spent as Head of Dept. I remember only too well the introduction of the patient/provider split in the late 1980s which promoted the idea of General Management. Essentially this stated that anyone with business experience could manage clinical departments in the NHS.

What happened was that these people came in at the top with no direct experience - introduced top down changes in a very dictatorial way and then when chaos enschued left for the next big prize. I also recall that Margaret Thatcher famously made the comment that there is no such thing as society - only individuals. I am no fan of New Labour who I saw as offering more of the same but I do have some hope that JC and the team around him are more sensitive to the needs of actual people and do actually seem to be connecting with the public at a grass roots level in complete contrast the top down style of Mrs May et al.

The other point, which I have made previously is that I attended public school and saw first had the sense of entitlement that go with privilege. If you doubt that this sense of entitlement exists, I strongly recommend that you read "Stiff Upper Lip - Secrets, Crimes & the Schooling of a Ruling Class" for you insight into the minds and motivations of those in positions of power.
 

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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And they will still find cheap labour from somewhere, won't they?
The problem is that the majority that voted for Brexit are expecting the opposite result, more jobs, more pay.
The irony is that we already have near "full" so called employment and wages go down, as does what they will buy.
 
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oldgroaner

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Jacob Rees-Mogg is MP for North East Somerset

Whether or not he could deliver it is another matter but, tell me what you see wrong in what he says?
You obviously either missed this earlier or chose not to read it properly...

Writing about oneself is boring, but ideas are not. The question for Conservatives is “What do we want to propose to the electorate and how can we deliver it?” The last election campaign was too managerial and lacked inspiration. An effective manifesto does not need a great list of specific promises, it must instead set out a principled foundation on which each policy may be built.

Unlike the socialist, the Conservative believes that society is built from the bottom up, not the top down. Individuals come together to form families, communities and nations. The instruments of government are there to serve not to command. The random mass of individual decisions will better suit the comfort of the nation than the careful direction of resources from Whitehall. I am not the first to point out that, every day in London, 10 million lunches are served without the need for ministerial involvement.

It follows from this view that the state is there to enable people to lead the lives they wish as far as possible without conflicting with their neighbours. Policy decisions flow from this and it is the moral basis for what the government does. It is interested in what people can do, rather than what they are unable to do, and this has underpinned Iain Duncan Smith’s disability reforms, which seek to find out what a disabled person is capable of doing, rather than assuming that the only response to disability is money.

In terms of taxation, the view that individuals matter is a reminder that the money belongs to a specific person, and the state may only take what it needs. Generally, people will spend their own money more effectively than the government and there is no money at all, except for that earned in the private sector. Public sector workers may pay tax, but that merely circulates money between departments; tax paid by NHS workers comes and goes from the consolidated fund with some administrative expense in between.

In addition to low taxation being right in terms of ownership, it is also better economically. The recent cut in corporation tax, one of George Osborne’s most successful policies, has more than doubled the tax received. This has helped businesses afford to invest and employ people leading to a stronger economy and allowing the Government more easily to finance its expenditure. This example ought to be applied to income tax and, as a matter of urgency, to stamp duty.

Going with the grain of what people want is not only important in terms of taxation. The Grenfell Tower was not created because people chose to live in tower blocks, but because, from the Second World War onward, officialdom wanted tower blocks – despite opinion surveys consistently showing that the overwhelmingly majority of people want to live in houses with gardens.

But the state thought it knew best. Regrettably some Conservatives went along with this, though tower blocks are the physical embodiment of socialism. Would it not be better to pull them down, build houses, even if this requires more space, which it often does not, and then sell them at a discount to the current occupants of tower blocks? It would help people have what they want, and reinvigorate home ownership, which creates a stable society but also meets a natural, almost fundamental, human ambition.

As with tower blocks, so with energy policy It is striking how wrong the big state can be. It was the “Nanny knows best” approach that led to the scandal over diesel emissions. To risk public health today, for a carbon dioxide policy made irrelevant by emerging markets was the worst sort of political grandstanding. Similarly, the tariffs on Chinese solar panels put up the cost of energy subsidies at the expense of the poorest in the land. Meanwhile, the market is providing cleaner energy; in the United States, renewable energy is growing rapidly as it becomes more economic, and shale gas has helped reduce emissions significantly. Conservatives should recognise that individual ingenuity and business acumen do better than central planning.

Conservatives ought to back the free market, but that is not the same as big business. We must tackle monopolies. Big business loves regulation – and incidentally the European Union – because it keeps out competition, maintains high prices and reduces the power of the individual consumer. The role of the state here is to back the customer, not the producer. In some areas this is easy: supermarkets are highly competitive and need little interference. The monopolists tend to have high levels of capital invested, and many customers.

As a constituency MP, the worst organisation I deal with is BT, but it is not alone as a scarcely competent monopolist. The energy companies have a degree of arrogance towards the customers, while both banks and insurance firms penalise loyalty and the BBC writes eye-wateringly rude letters to people who do not own a television, assuming that they must be crooks. This is not about price caps, but about tilting the scales back towards the individual: if a company can penalise me for not paying on time, I ought to be able to fine it for sending out the wrong bill.

Each of us wants to improve our own standard of living and to see our children better off than we are. This is best done by freeing individuals to maximise their own successes through government that has confidence in their capacities, which trusts the people.

Jacob Rees-Mogg is MP for North East Somerset

Whether or not he could deliver it is another matter but, tell me what you see wrong in what he says?
Apart from the fact they are the sort of Platitudes the likes of Russell Grant the Astrologer comes our with?
Any fool can do that, what counts is what the fool actually DOES and her Moggy scores badly in a spectacular fashion, lets look at the Evidence in his Voting record.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24926/jacob_rees-mogg/north_east_somerset?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI68jS4-2V1gIVpbftCh04dgJsEAAYASAAEgKihfD_BwE


A waste of a seat in the House of commons



I'm sorry but if you don't regard this man as despicable you have a serious problem with judgement of right and wrong.
He is a dangerous idiot.
 
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Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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And they will still find cheap labour from somewhere, won't they?
true enough, there will always be plenty of scope for cheap labour.
After the brexit vote, non EU immigration 179,000 while EU immigration came down to 127,000.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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true enough, there will always plenty of scope for cheap labour.
After the brexit vote, non EU immigration 179,000 while EU immigration came down to 127,000.
proving that the hope of better things is just Pie in the Sky
 

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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And they will still find cheap labour from somewhere, won't they?
The problem is that the majority that voted for Brexit are expecting the opposite result, more jobs, more pay.
The irony is that we already have near "full" so called employment and wages go down, as does what they will buy.
You have not got a clue what leave voters wanted or want now. Its at best speculation and to base on argument on a personal assumption is futile...We all know what assumption is the mother of...
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Apart from the fact they are the sort of Platitudes the likes of Russell Grant the Astrologer comes our with?
Any fool can do that, what counts is what the fool actually DOES and her Moggy scores badly in a spectacular fashion, lets look at the Evidence in his Voting record.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24926/jacob_rees-mogg/north_east_somerset?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI68jS4-2V1gIVpbftCh04dgJsEAAYASAAEgKihfD_BwE


A waste of a seat in the House of commons



I'm sorry but if you don't regard this man as despicable you have a serious problem with judgement of right and wrong.
He is a dangerous idiot.
Who is buying into the propoganda now OG ?
 

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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proving that the hope of better things is just Pie in the Sky
And staying as we were was just getting us in a deeper hole. You make out as though everything is and has been fine for years. It is not. The mess we are in now is whilst playing to tune eu demands..
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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[QUOTE="A country needs a well organised society..
Well at least we have been warned - sounds a touch like Communism to me. As I said earlier I do not want Politicians, or their servants, telling me what to do.[/QUOTE]
Then try thinking for yourself and stop coming with with remarks like the one about the party system where you denigrate coalitions as you expect the party you voted for to exert power.
Does the mandate only extend to them exercising it on everyone else but you personally.
Considering that you don't want "Politicians, or their servants, telling me what to do."
Then why do you vote to empower them to make laws that Govern your actions?
Or do you ignore all laws on principle
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
There's a lovely little clip attached which shows Frankie Boyle and Akala discussing racism. Of course, the truth contained will be wasted on the 'Brexidiot' lowlifes whose main motivation for voting in the referendum was entirely based on hatred of foreign people.

Towards the end, there is an almost unbelievable statement from an Australian news anchor - sums up a large number of Aussies as does their immigration policy!


Tom
 
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