Brexit, for once some facts.

[Danidl]

Who is the' we' you so comfortably make assumptions about? Call me a patriot if you like, but I don't think the majority of the UK population are the narcissistic, conservative tossers obsessed with arm sales and heartless about the plight of refugees you describe. I think at least 16 million of them are much better than that.

By 16 million , I am assuming you are linking it to the remain vote. ... But if not, I trust you are being unfair to close on 50 million of your fellows. I would like to think that those of you living on the island to our East are better than that.
Now 34 million out of a potential pool of 46 million made a decision some 14 months ago. The decision was evenly split, with 1 million more deciding the leave route. Beyond that it is hard to draw inferences and conclusions.
There is a well established culture of decency , forebearance , community spirit , tolerance, moderation and dare I say a Christian derived charity ethos, which leads to things like Oxfam, village fêtes and carnivals, even within cities, wild life funds.
There are also darker sides,.. but I would prefer not to dwell on those but will suggest those traits that Gilbert and Sullivan lampooned, would be prominent.

 

[oldtom]

people / voters who gravitate towards a practical solution, the centre politics, libdems, blairites, europhile tories and those who don't vote.

You come across as a devout anti-socialist. Perhaps you are one of the 'Anyone but Corbyn' camp who happily gives credence to any group clearly unconnected with socialism....New Labour, Laughable Demorats, etc?

Tom

 

[Woosh]

Is that why Corbyn had a surge of support in the last election and pragmatic may (swinging from pro euro to hard brexit, like Boris) lost her majority. .

Corbyn pragmatically bought votes, safe in the knowledge that he will probably never have to deliver in his lifetime, TM was stupid trying to take the moral high ground which has never worked in British GEs by trying to solve an unsolvable problem, that of an ageing population.
BTW, TM did not swing anymore than JC. She's moved her position on brexit toward the centre like JC will have to when push comes to shove because the country wants a deal with the EU.

 

[Danidl]

Corbyn pragmatically bought votes, safe in the knowledge that he will probably never have to deliver in his lifetime, TM was stupid trying to take the moral high ground which has never worked in British GEs by trying to solve an unsolvable problem, that of an ageing population.
BTW, TM did not swing anymore than JC. She's moved her position on brexit toward the centre like JC will have to when push comes to shove because the country wants a deal with the EU.

.. agreed your country wants a deal with the EU. 48.5% wanted no change to the existing deal and varying fractions of the 52% wanted anything from almost no change to total annihilation of the EU..

 

[Woosh]

we need polls that say 60+% like the EFTA deal for parliament to accept.

 

[flecc]

we need polls that say 60+% like the EFTA deal for parliament to accept.

That seems appealing, but frankly I'd rather we ignore the public and get back to our usual parliamentary control and no more silly referenda with voting by hordes of the uninformed.
.

 

[Woosh]

That seems appealing, but frankly I'd rather we ignore the public and get back to our usual parliamentary control and no more silly referenda witn voting by hordes of the uninformed.
.

the brexit debate has educated a few on how much our livelihood, our fish, our beaches depends on our neighbours'

 

[Woosh]

You come across as a devout anti-socialist. Perhaps you are one of the 'Anyone but Corbyn' camp who happily gives credence to any group clearly unconnected with socialism....New Labour, Laughable Demorats, etc?

I see JC as a cat with 9 lives. An unrealistic dreamer who got lucky and over promoted.

 

[oldgroaner]

This is the big long term downside that I foresaw long ago, the recent comment of being in the position of Cuba was very apt. Most forget or never knew that our so called big friend, the USA, were prepared for and on the verge of declaring war on Britain in 1930 in order to break up our empire, with ironically only the rise of Hitler stopping that. A future United States of Europe could just as easily be the enemy.

The world today only has three future options for any country. To be very big and powerful, to be part of a very big and powerful union, or to be so small and insignificant that no-one cares about your presence.
.

Plan Red as I recall

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Just remembered one of the lies that particularly wound me up last year.

I wonder who many people fell for this one and voted "leave".

He should be prosecuted.

 

[oldgroaner]

people / voters who gravitate towards a practical solution, the centre politics, libdems, blairites, europhile tories and those who don't vote.

Practical ? that as they say is stretching credibility far too far.

 

[Woosh]

Practical ? that as they say is stretching credibility far too far.

EFTA or special trade deal like with Canada, there is no other route to stay close to the EU and open up to the rest of the world.
In that sense, EFTA is the sensible and practical route although some say it's too close to the old regime.

 

[oldgroaner]

That seems appealing, but frankly I'd rather we ignore the public and get back to our usual parliamentary control and no more silly referenda with voting by hordes of the uninformed.
.

Perhaps we should insist that at least Parliament reaches that unlikely state as a minimum before they do any voting too,
at present they are clueless!

 

[oldgroaner]

EFTA or special trade deal like with Canada, there is no other route to stay close to the EU and open up to the rest of the world.
In that sense, EFTA is the sensible and practical route although some say it's too close to the old regime.

And others say it is neither, just facical.

 

[Danidl]

EFTA or special trade deal like with Canada, there is no other route to stay close to the EU and open up to the rest of the world.
In that sense, EFTA is the sensible and practical route although some say it's too close to the old regime.

Might not the EU have a view about accepting a UK membership of EFTA?. Agreements are double sided, and the EU could ( I am not saying would or should) take a view that the size of the UK would so unbalance the EFTA, so that it's composition no longer fit for purpose.They could then suspend dealings with EFTA until the situation was regularised.
Something about counting chickens before their hatched as it were.

 

[Danidl]

That seems appealing, but frankly I'd rather we ignore the public and get back to our usual parliamentary control and no more silly referenda with voting by hordes of the uninformed.
.

Flecc, the uninformed (not uniformed as I had previously written, Though this might not be totally incorrect,) hordes basically gave advice to your legislature. They then made the votes. Were there not a minimum of three votes! ... After what appeared to me facile arguments. Any criticism should therefore be leveled at those whose responsibility it was to be informed, patriotic and critical.

 

[oldgroaner]

This seems to be the best argument against having the supreme court in this country rather than the EU

"The UK courts have somewhat limited power over the executive. They can scrutinise government decision-making processes, and the legality of their actions or decisions, but generally rule on procedural, rather than substantive grounds. Parliamentary supremacy means is nothing to prevent Parliament inserting a clause into legislation which can exclude the ability of a court to hear a judicial review against the government..

So if the Government has a majority it can legally bring back slavery and act with dictatorial powers to pass a law saying it no longer required to be re-elected.
And no one and no power in the land other than force can prevent it doing so.

As they also did this
"The Lords’ powers were weakened by two Acts of parliament in the twentieth century, which asserted the supremacy of the Commons and removed the Lords’ veto over legislation."

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Brexit: empowering absolute corruption by popular demand of the ill advised and unwary.

We need a Written Constitution with Checks and balances on the powers of the "State" and all it creatures.
In a democracy "The state" is supposedly designed to serve the people, yet here it is the property and instrument of control of the Moneyed Ruling Elite, and they are not even necessarily even local to these islands in either origin or loyalty, more often to multi national corporations.

"Dieu et Corporatum Droit " should be the motto under the Government's Coat of Arms.

 

[oldgroaner]

Any criticism should therefore be leveled at those whose responsibility it was to be informed, patriotic and critical.

But we don't have anybody willing to plead "Guilty as Charged yer 'onor!" the Prisoner whined from the Dock.
"It wasn't me, but I won't do it again."

 

[flecc]

Flecc, the uninformed (not uniformed as I had previously written, Though this might not be totally incorrect,) hordes basically gave advice to your legislature. They then made the votes. Were there not a minimum of three votes! ... After what appeared to me facile arguments. Any criticism should therefore be leveled at those whose responsibility it was to be informed, patriotic and critical.

My point was not to criticise but express a desire that the whole responsibility for control rest with parliament, and that they no longer abdicate their democratic responsibilities by thrusting individual decisions upon the public.

The public had spoken once on a close co-operation with Europe in 1975. They had further repeatedly voted for the governing party that signed up to major changes in that relationship, such as the Maastricht Treaty.

Together those were a more than adequate implementation of the public's democratic rights on the issue.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

That's sailing boat and bow-and-arrow thinking. In this modern age that geographic sea is no more than a little gulley.
.

With a rail link running under...