Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Brexit is clearly becoming a two pronged campaign by the Government
  1. Grovel to the EU and agree to anything to keep business going and profit rolling in
  2. Disguise that so the new subservience to the EU can be presented as Dominance.
So far it isn't going very well is it?
 
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shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
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There's one point on the ECJ where Theresa May is right and the EU are definitely in the wrong.

The EU are insisting on their citizens in the UK being subject to the ECJ, but that is nonsense.

When we travel to any country we are subject to their laws and courts. Since the EU citizens are voluntarily here, they must be subject to our UK courts while here. That is long standing international understanding, and anyone coming here accepts that by their voluntary entry.
.
The Repeal Act will ultimately correct the source error made by our Government back in 1972 and remove the power of the ECJ, any future linking will be subject to UK/EU negotiation.

http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/eulaw-ecj-primacy.shtml
 
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oldgroaner

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The Repeal Act will ultimately correct the source error made by our Government back in 1972 and remove the power of the ECJ, any future linking with the will be subject to UK/EU negotiation.
And we were a party to forming those laws, were we not?
So what is your problem with that?
Now TM is saying we will have to submit to them anyway.

http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/eulaw-ecj-primacy.shtml
" but of the internal constitutional arrangements of federal states. And like a federal state, the European Union has its own supreme court, the European Court of Justice, which has the ultimate power of decision over both the content and the scope of EU law."

Naturally and that is the beauty of it, as a basic start towards the Formation of the long needed and inevitable formation of the United States of Europe.

You might as well sit at low water line and like Canute defy the tide to come in.
The error is to resist this natural and essential progression and go back to being a feudal society, why not separate from the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish too?

That is the natural next step for Brexit voters, why not, when with a litle effort we could dissolve England too into the Saxon petty Kingdoms!
And perhaps bring back Trial by combat and bear baiting?

Why do you want us to end up, like Cuba, dwarfed by a giant and powerful neighbour, for some medieval notion of "patriotic" pride?
 
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oldgroaner

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Good old Davis some say
"
David Davis to avoid putting Brexit payment on table in Brussels
A person familiar with the negotiations said Britain would not be disclosing its financial obligations during the three-and-a-half-day negotiating round next week. “It would be like turning up half your cards,” they said.

He still imagines or at least tries to pass himself off as having the upper hand, what a surprise!

This bit is hugely funny
"The refusal to go into details is also part of Davis’s strategy ofC. The Brexit secretary said last week that British intentions were meant to be difficult to read. “I’m afraid in negotiations you do have constructive ambiguity from time to time.”

Roughly translated that comes out as "constructive ambiguity "equals "Dumb insolence"

Lets face it Davis wants this to fail, and blame that failure on the EU.
 
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Danidl

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Remember that the party desperate to drag the nation out of the EU against the wishes of probably way over half the nation is the self-same party who used to lie that the NHS is safe in their hands.

View attachment 20954

Tom
... And why not allow them register as charities subject only to a few conditions
1. Submit all accounts to the charities regulator
2. Pay all staff, including adminstration national norms eg NHS rates.
3. Have no shareholders, recieving any monies under any guise. Any share capital must be irrevocable, with no clawback. Any monies donated towards the charity, would be eligible for tax deduction.
4. No member of the board of directors eligible for any expenses save those at civil service approved rates .
Failure to meet any of these conditions would mean charity status revoked, and full business rates etc payable.
 
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Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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Great expectations?

Here is the view from the City: what do you think the transitional deal is like?

Fewer analysts think that will be WTO.


 
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There's one point on the ECJ where Theresa May is right and the EU are definitely in the wrong.

The EU are insisting on their citizens in the UK being subject to the ECJ, but that is nonsense.

When we travel to any country we are subject to their laws and courts. Since the EU citizens are voluntarily here, they must be subject to our UK courts while here. That is long standing international understanding, and anyone coming here accepts that by their voluntary entry.
.
I was discussing this last night with a EU citizen currently living in the UK and they brought up an important point, that might mean your analysis isn't quite correct.

You are obviously right that anyone travelling to another country is subject to their laws etc etc. But the reason the EU and ECJ want what they do, is because the EU citizens in the UK are here now, before Brexit and they moved here under the agreement of the UK that they would be subject to ECJ. These residents are the ones that the EU wants to protect, not people moving here after Brexit. Its a subtle difference, but an important one in the eyes of the people it impact.

However much like the trade deals, the ECJ is I suspect something that 99% of people didn't care about 2 years ago, and are only now caring about because they have been told to.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Great expectations?

Here is the view from the City: what do you think the transitional deal is like?

Fewer analysts think that will be WTO.


It would seem that TM and co are in panic mode after realising that the "No deal is better than a bad deal" is likely to be a disaster, and they are going for the "Norway" option as the EU is intending them to do
http://www.politico.eu/article/eu-brussels-suggests-norway-model-for-uk-
after-brexit-talks-negotiations/


But desperately trying to prove this is a victory for them and what the Voters actually wanted all along

I suspect they will get away with that as Brexit voters are easy to point in any direction the Government takes a fancy to.
In the long run, it won't change the long term result.

Whichever way you view it there is only one long term outcome, we will be back in the EU in order to survive, but take a lot of damage before that happens, socially more so than economically, and that is the Elephant in the room.
 

Kudoscycles

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Apr 15, 2011
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the battle of brexit is fought everyday on the BBC and other media. I don't think at the time of the last GE anyone was still fooled by the £350 million a week for the NHS or believed in the promise that we could get a deal paying the EU nothing, reject the ECJ, FOM and keep the same access to the single market. Ask yourself why the tories are still the largest party. Remainers just don't want to accept that half the country still want brexit.
There were many who voted Leave just because of the £350 million on the side of the bus,they did believe Boris and are fed up that the NHS are not getting the money,many in my family and they are not thick just vulnerable.
I disagree that half the country want Brexit but there are a lot who think it's a done deal that they cannot reverse,that's not to say they still want it....a second referendum would allow everyone to make an informed vote without Boris's bus lies.
KudosDave
 
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Danidl

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There has been an outburst of spleen on this thread over the last few days so I think an non denominational prayer is in order... Sourced from the Irish times... For our non Irish Readers a short glossary... Cork is a southern county in Ireland where the people have a melodic accent and can be as difficult to follow as some Cornish folk. Mayo is a country in the west coast which has an excellent Gaelic football team , but have just failed to win the ultimate prize in our football , despite being in multiple semifinals since 1954, I think...
... Text by Frank McNally follows...
Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in switching your phone off now and again. As far as possible without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. But keep surrender as an option too: sometimes it’s only the sensible move.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly, especially if you have a mad Cork accent. And listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Not that you’ll always have a choice about listening: if you’re sharing a train carriage with them, you’ll hear their story anyway.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. Avoid them even more if they have hard drink taken; the spirit may in turn be vexatious to them.

If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater or lesser persons than yourself. Even worse, if you only knew it, some of the lesser persons are getting paid more than you.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time (although regarding your current zero-hours contract, the Human Resources department strongly advises you to familiarise yourself with the definition of the terms “possession” and “changing fortunes of time”, as detailed in section 94 (b) ii of the company employment guidelines).

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. However plausible it may seem, it is highly unlikely that the widow of a former oil minister in a central African country really has selected your bank account as a conduit for the transfer of her $15 million life savings, 10 per cent of which will accrue to you as a mark of her gratitude.

But let this not blind you to what virtue there is. Many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself (an exception to this rule applies if being yourself has in the past led to criminal convictions: in that case, becoming somebody else instead may be advisable).

Especially, do not feign affection; unless you work in the hospitality industry, in which case we refer you back to the section on career prospects.

Neither be cynical about love. For in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass; although as any soil mechanic could tell you, that’s not a very sound metaphor, since grass is notoriously susceptible to aridity and in extreme cases (eg “all aridity”), will give way to desertification.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth, especially your deluded notion that there was anything good about pop music in the 1980s.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not stress yourself with dark imaginings, or instead of nurturing strength of spirit, you may take to wearing a hard hat lined with tin foil. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness, and of reading the Daily Mail too much.

Beyond a wholesome discipline – PUT THAT CAKE DOWN NOW, YOU FAT SLOB! – be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. Regardless of what Michael O’Leary thinks, this is true even if you’re on a Ryanair flight that only cost a fiver.

And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe, like the equally mysterious Ryanair random seat allocation algorithm, is unfolding as it should. Terms and conditions apply, however. The value of your investment in the universe may go up as well as down. Past performance of its children is not a guide to future results.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him, Her, It, They, or (insert gender pronoun of choice here) to be. And whatever your labours and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul, unless your soul has been destroyed already by, for example, too many years of following the Mayo football team.

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world; thanks in part to such cornerstones of civilisation as the Oxford comma, which featured earlier in this sentence. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

If cycling in Dublin, always cross tram tracks at an angle of at least 45 degrees.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,203
30,604
they moved here under the agreement of the UK that they would be subject to ECJ. These residents are the ones that the EU wants to protect, not people moving here after Brexit. Its a subtle difference, but an important one in the eyes of the people it impact.
I can understand the EU stance, but I still question its validity. It's tantamount to saying that once someone has arrived, a government cannot change any laws affecting an EU national who has settled here. They are after all not trapped here and can return to their origin, as many indeed have since the Brexit outcome.
.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,203
30,604
There has been an outburst of spleen on this thread over the last few days so I think an non denominational prayer is in order... Sourced from the Irish times... For our non Irish Readers a short glossary... Cork is a southern county in Ireland where the people have a melodic accent and can be as difficult to follow as some Cornish folk. Mayo is a country in the west coast which has an excellent Gaelic football team , but have just failed to win the ultimate prize in our football , despite being in multiple semifinals since 1954, I think...
... Text by Frank McNally follows...
Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in switching your phone off now and again. As far as possible without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. But keep surrender as an option too: sometimes it’s only the sensible move.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly, especially if you have a mad Cork accent. And listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Not that you’ll always have a choice about listening: if you’re sharing a train carriage with them, you’ll hear their story anyway.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. Avoid them even more if they have hard drink taken; the spirit may in turn be vexatious to them.

If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater or lesser persons than yourself. Even worse, if you only knew it, some of the lesser persons are getting paid more than you.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time (although regarding your current zero-hours contract, the Human Resources department strongly advises you to familiarise yourself with the definition of the terms “possession” and “changing fortunes of time”, as detailed in section 94 (b) ii of the company employment guidelines).

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. However plausible it may seem, it is highly unlikely that the widow of a former oil minister in a central African country really has selected your bank account as a conduit for the transfer of her $15 million life savings, 10 per cent of which will accrue to you as a mark of her gratitude.

But let this not blind you to what virtue there is. Many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself (an exception to this rule applies if being yourself has in the past led to criminal convictions: in that case, becoming somebody else instead may be advisable).

Especially, do not feign affection; unless you work in the hospitality industry, in which case we refer you back to the section on career prospects.

Neither be cynical about love. For in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass; although as any soil mechanic could tell you, that’s not a very sound metaphor, since grass is notoriously susceptible to aridity and in extreme cases (eg “all aridity”), will give way to desertification.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth, especially your deluded notion that there was anything good about pop music in the 1980s.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not stress yourself with dark imaginings, or instead of nurturing strength of spirit, you may take to wearing a hard hat lined with tin foil. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness, and of reading the Daily Mail too much.

Beyond a wholesome discipline – PUT THAT CAKE DOWN NOW, YOU FAT SLOB! – be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. Regardless of what Michael O’Leary thinks, this is true even if you’re on a Ryanair flight that only cost a fiver.

And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe, like the equally mysterious Ryanair random seat allocation algorithm, is unfolding as it should. Terms and conditions apply, however. The value of your investment in the universe may go up as well as down. Past performance of its children is not a guide to future results.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him, Her, It, They, or (insert gender pronoun of choice here) to be. And whatever your labours and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul, unless your soul has been destroyed already by, for example, too many years of following the Mayo football team.

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world; thanks in part to such cornerstones of civilisation as the Oxford comma, which featured earlier in this sentence. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

If cycling in Dublin, always cross tram tracks at an angle of at least 45 degrees.
In the third millenium Britain sermons are pointless. The most likely reaction is one word, commencing with bo- and ending with -ks.
.
.
 
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Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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I can understand the EU stance, but I still question its validity. It's tantamount to saying that once someone has arrived, a government cannot change any laws affecting an EU national who has settled here. They are after all not trapped here and can return to their origin, as many indeed have since the Brexit outcome.
.
People's flexibility to move might not be as free as you are assuming, when they move into other places they acquire baggage, husband's, wives, children, mortgages, careers, health problems and insurance, school certificates etc etc ... Now the EU has attempted to make these as flexible as possible, with Bologna agreement on third cycle education, with e111 forms and now with phone roaming and multiple other elements. There are plenty of constraints eg will a no claims bonus achieved in one state be honoured for insurance purposes in another?
The general principle is that citizens from any EU country are treated similarly to the native citizen of another country, while in it, provided it does not interfere with their freedom of movement. The problem for the UK as I see it is that they conferred rights on all EU citizens, by agreeing with EU directives. They cannot now renage on those rights. The EU and it's ECJ sees itself as the guardian of those rights, including those EU citizens who are also UK nationals whether living in the UK or elsewhere.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,203
30,604
People's flexibility to move might not be as free as you are assuming, when they move into other places they acquire baggage, husband's, wives, children, mortgages, careers, health problems and insurance, school certificates etc etc ... Now the EU has attempted to make these as flexible as possible, with Bologna agreement on third cycle education, with e111 forms and now with phone roaming and multiple other elements. There are plenty of constraints eg will a no claims bonus achieved in one state be honoured for insurance purposes in another?
The general principle is that citizens from any EU country are treated similarly to the native citizen of another country, while in it, provided it does not interfere with their freedom of movement. The problem for the UK as I see it is that they conferred rights on all EU citizens, by agreeing with EU directives. They cannot now renage on those rights. The EU and it's ECJ sees itself as the guardian of those rights, including those EU citizens who are also UK nationals whether living in the UK or elsewhere.
So despite leaving the EU and withdrawing from the ECJ influence, our laws related to EU immigrants are frozen for up to 100 years until the most recent babies brought in have died?

And during that circa 100 years we are subject to any changes in the application of the law the ECJ chooses, without any input or control from us?

I think not.

Anyone moving to another country knows they will be subject to that countries laws and any changes in those laws that country chooses to make. There is no possible justification for EU citizens here to be treated any differently than that time honoured common practice.
.
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,379
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Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
So despite leaving the EU and withdrawing from the ECJ influence, our laws related to EU immigrants are frozen for up to 100 years until the most recent babies brought in have died?
the EU would like the children, even those born outside the UK, to inherit the right of abode and entitlement to local services from their parents.
Following the same logic, what about grand children born outside the UK? should they be entitled too?
 
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Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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In the third millenium Britain sermons are pointless. The most likely reaction is one word, commencing with bo- and ending with -ks.
.
.
.. so no dreamcatchers, magic crystals, or dreamy candles for you then, or those inspiring words from sundry Eastern mystics, what do you do when you go to those quaint tourist traps? . The article I found actually brings in a few topics recently mentioned on this thread...
 
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