Brexit, for once some facts.

Woosh

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If there is to be a Brexit, the softest possible one is the most preferable. But is that likely?
As time goes by, it seems that the only way that the UK can negotiate its own deals is that it joins with EFTA, even just for the transitional period.
As time goes by, people will soon work out that deals with sharks like Mr Trump's administration won't be easy and will keep us inside EFTA after the transition period.
if the UK joins EFTA, I would suggest ROI to do same.
 

Danidl

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if the UK joins EFTA, I would suggest ROI to do same.
And lose Ryanair?? . We may be thick but we are not stupid. Are you aware of the strength of our airline leasing industry and how it benefits by being linked to a supranational legal system?
. Having said that , there is a consistent background noise from a category of persons living along a coastal strip in south co Dublin who are making that point. Some of them have a belief that Ireland should reunion with Westminster!!!, And they occasionally write letters to that effect. Hell has a better chance of freezing over.
My view was that we were and still are in a happy union with the UK as fellow partners in a grand alliance of like minded countries. A union which over the last two years had made great strides of friendship, until the cancer of Brexit arose.
I refer of course to our joint membership of the EU.
Our relationship with our Northern brethren was improving, and they would agree with that. Ok they have a few funny words like wee for small and Wynn for gorse, but what's that between friends. The border was becoming as significant as that between Wales and England, a cultural divide with welcome diversity...
 
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oldgroaner

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you would probably have better job security if we join EFTA than remaining in the EU.
Just compare pay between members of EFTA and members of EU. Higher wages stimulate investment, improve productivity.
we've been through this already and it isn't a fair comparison is it?
 
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Woosh

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And lose Ryanair??
why would you lose Ryanair if ROI joins EFTA? You have Swissair, Scandinavian Airlines, Icelandic Airlines etc. They are allowed to run in the EU.
 

Woosh

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And if the UK does not join EFTA what would you suggest the Irish should do? Clearly, you believe a United States of Europe is not something that Irish people would benefit from.

Tom
I think it's inevitable in the short term that we need to find a route to reduce friction with the EU. EFTA is the only one.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Our relationship with our Northern brethren was improving, and they would agree with that. Ok they have a few funny words like wee for small and Wynn for gorse, but what's that between friends.
Mmmmmm. Still no agreement on who invented the bagpipes though.
.
 
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Danidl

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why would you lose Ryanair if ROI joins EFTA? You have Swissair, Scandinavian Airlines, Icelandic Airlines etc. They are allowed to run in the EU.
.. read what Michael o Leary has said on the subject. He has basically made three statements, amplifying the same theme. .. before Brexit .. you would be mad to do it and we might withdraw flights. After brexit .. we want ECJ to adjudicate on disputes, otherwise will withdraw planes. Recently . Unless you (UK) can provide assurances , and as we need to do planning a year in advance, fights to and from UK airports by us will cease from. Summer 2019
I don't know about these airlines , except that say Swissair is linked with Lufthansa, SAS is Swedish, hence in EU, and I recall some major kerfuffle with Icelandic air needing to regularise staff conditions with EU norms, before getting or retaining landing rights . The details escape me.
 
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Danidl

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Mmmmmm. Still no agreement on who invented the bagpipes though.
.
.. no the culprits have not been unmasked. You are aware of the distinction, in that the irish ones or uillean pipes are fed by flexing the shoulder rather than blowing air into a bag. My impression is that the Scottish pipes are louder, and the uillean pipes are more expressive.
 
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shemozzle999

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We don't need to as you are quite capable of working that out for yourself
But I'll give you a clue
"
ECJ judge Professor Sir David Edward made the point that: ‘You can escape the jurisdiction of the ECJ, but you have got to comply with EU standards if you are going to export into the EU.’ Who decides the standards? Well, ultimately they're interpreted by the ECJ.

Also, if we leave the ECJ's jurisdiction there will no longer be UK judges at the court. So it will influence us - but we will not be able to influence it."

Stupid idea giving it up, isn't it?
Just what do we get by losing influence? absolutely NOTHING, except we will be at it's mercy.
Smart move!
That applies to all Countries around the world that set their own standards, obtaining approvals merely a testing exercise to conform to, what is the problem?

Why would we want to influence it, we won't be a part of it after we leave?

If they impose standards that we are unable to comply with then we can't trade with them, but I do not see them benefiting from doing that.

It is a two way street the UK/EU will lose influence over each other.

Why would the UK be at it's mercy - please expand.
 

Danidl

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That applies to all Countries around the world that set their own standards, obtaining approvals merely a testing exercise to conform to, what is the problem?

Why would we want to influence it, we won't be a part of it after we leave?

If they impose standards that we are unable to comply with then we can't trade with them, but I do not see them benefiting from doing that.

It is a two way street the UK/EU will lose influence over each other.

Why would the UK be at it's mercy - please expand.
I am wondering about your technical background now. Every responsible technical industry tries to have their representatives on the national and international standards bodies. They are then in a position to know what is happening along the tracks into the future and may even be in a position to influence the change itself. What it certainly does is to ensure that their r&d departments are not going down blind alleys. This is not the same as insider dealing as the deliberations are more open, but knowledge is power and the earlier you have this knowledge the more powerful...
By absenting themselves from this UK engineers in every discipline are putting themselves at a competitive disadvantage. By doing it deliberately is an act of folly.
This is also true in the non engineering fields also, if task forces are suggesting eliminating a specific plastic, or chemical or pharmaceutical, does it not make sense to be at the table. ..
The UK has had a proud tradition in standards, but how does a population of 60M compete with one 10 times larger and on its doorstep. It will find itself playing catch-up all the time.
 
That applies to all Countries around the world that set their own standards, obtaining approvals merely a testing exercise to conform to, what is the problem?

Why would we want to influence it, we won't be a part of it after we leave?

If they impose standards that we are unable to comply with then we can't trade with them, but I do not see them benefiting from doing that.

It is a two way street the UK/EU will lose influence over each other.

Why would the UK be at it's mercy - please expand.
You're on an eBike forum, so here's an example... you should see the benefit of the EU wide 250w / 25kph standard and how it benefits UK / EU suppliers because they have a standard massive market to sell to. Its why the EU brands are so far ahead of the US where they have different standards in every state and therefore no brand really knows what to make.

Why do you think the UK is suddenly getting into eBIkes now the law has caught up with the EU.

So lets say the EU make it 350w, so all the brands make 350w bikes because that's what the market needs. We're stuck at 250w... so what happens? We just have to copy the EU anyway, and move to 350w.

This example is mirrored in every industry, with every product that currently has an EU standard. Outside that standard, we're a tiny market that won't be able to suddently create our own standards and expect people around the world to manufacture to the UK standard.
 

Kudoscycles

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The ECJ rules on all matters European - the UK will be leaving Europe and shall become a Third Country so will not be in need of it's services - what is stupid about that, please explain further?
The ECJ is the governing court of the European open skies agreement....unless you only want to fly only in the UK we will all need its services to fly over European airspace and land at European airports...trust that explains why we need the ECJ.
We could of course scrap flying and go everywhere on horseback,pubs could become coaching inns to change horses....I am sure Rees-Mogg would love that,employment for his serfs.
KudosDave
 
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Kudoscycles

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Apr 15, 2011
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That applies to all Countries around the world that set their own standards, obtaining approvals merely a testing exercise to conform to, what is the problem?

Why would we want to influence it, we won't be a part of it after we leave?

If they impose standards that we are unable to comply with then we can't trade with them, but I do not see them benefiting from doing that.

It is a two way street the UK/EU will lose influence over each other.

Why would the UK be at it's mercy - please expand.
Shemozzle....' Obtaining approvals merely a testing exercise to conform to,what is the problem'.....have you ever tried to get a European standard?
I bring in alloy wheels from China that meet the Japanese light wheel standard,OEM to Toyota....this means they can be sold anywhere in the world that accepts that standard including Germany.
I am in contact with British wheel manufacturers who would love to sell their wheels into Europe,especially Germany,but they need TUV testing and approval,average cost euro 20,000 per wheel type,they cannot afford that.
I import compressors from China,manufactured to the European standard,I can sell them anywhere in Europe including the UK. I happened to look at the old British standard which has ancient standards that nobody else uses....if a compressor was manufactured in the UK to the British standard it could only be sold here,the TUV testing costs would be euro 12000 per machine with no guarantee of passing.....TUV are much tougher on imported units than those already being sold in Europe....the Chinese have a very close working relationship with TUV Germany,there are many TUV testing centres in China,we would be considered not worth bothering with.
Be assured testing to EU standards is a very expensive operation unless you are German or Chinese,if we were outside 'the club' we would find getting EU standards on our products almost impossible.
KudosDave
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
You're on an eBike forum, so here's an example... you should see the benefit of the EU wide 250w / 25kph standard and how it benefits UK / EU suppliers because they have a standard massive market to sell to. Its why the EU brands are so far ahead of the US where they have different standards in every state and therefore no brand really knows what to make.

Why do you think the UK is suddenly getting into eBIkes now the law has caught up with the EU.

So lets say the EU make it 350w, so all the brands make 350w bikes because that's what the market needs. We're stuck at 250w... so what happens? We just have to copy the EU anyway, and move to 350w.

This example is mirrored in every industry, with every product that currently has an EU standard. Outside that standard, we're a tiny market that won't be able to suddently create our own standards and expect people around the world to manufacture to the UK standard.
Sorry my posting pretty much mirrored KTM posting,but we are both companies who have a lot of involvement with EU standards.
KudosDave
 
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shemozzle999

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Sep 28, 2009
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I am wondering about your technical background now. Every responsible technical industry tries to have their representatives on the national and international standards bodies. They are then in a position to know what is happening along the tracks into the future and may even be in a position to influence the change itself. What it certainly does is to ensure that their r&d departments are not going down blind alleys. This is not the same as insider dealing as the deliberations are more open, but knowledge is power and the earlier you have this knowledge the more powerful...
By absenting themselves from this UK engineers in every discipline are putting themselves at a competitive disadvantage. By doing it deliberately is an act of folly.
This is also true in the non engineering fields also, if task forces are suggesting eliminating a specific plastic, or chemical or pharmaceutical, does it not make sense to be at the table. ..
The UK has had a proud tradition in standards, but how does a population of 60M compete with one 10 times larger and on its doorstep. It will find itself playing catch-up all the time.
I think you will find that the UK already contributes highly in regard to global standards - there is a bigger world out there than just the EU who are pushing for global acceptance of their homegrown standards.

https://www.iso.org/members.html
 
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shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
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The ECJ is the governing court of the European open skies agreement....unless you only want to fly only in the UK we will all need its services to fly over European airspace and land at European airports...trust that explains why we need the ECJ.
We could of course scrap flying and go everywhere on horseback,pubs could become coaching inns to change horses....I am sure Rees-Mogg would love that,employment for his serfs.
KudosDave
And they will need our agreement to use the UK hub - speak the the EU carriers and see if they are worried if a new deal can't be struck with the EU - as I have said before it is a two way street .
 
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anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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I think you will find that the UK already contributes highly in regard to global standards - there is a bigger world out there than just the EU who are pushing for global acceptance of their homegrown standards.

https://www.iso.org/members.html
Most EU standards are based on ISO standards... Including those for bikes, batteries, etc.
 
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anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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That applies to all Countries around the world that set their own standards, obtaining approvals merely a testing exercise to conform to, what is the problem?

Why would we want to influence it, we won't be a part of it after we leave?

If they impose standards that we are unable to comply with then we can't trade with them, but I do not see them benefiting from doing that.

It is a two way street the UK/EU will lose influence over each other.

Why would the UK be at it's mercy - please expand.
Somewhere along the line you have lost the plot. The EU standards tend to protect the buyer and the end user. You want to make products that don't? Fine, but that is a one way street. To ruin...
 

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