I don't think you are capable of raising your standards to the level of those in those 4 countries. Often they go over and beyond those of the EU, the ones your PM is complaining about.
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
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Actually the EU did more for many Brexiters than this government will ever do...these people will find out what the Rees-Moggs want to do,if they stay in power....I dont think Corbyn wants the job,better to let May and Co make a mess of an impossible situation.
Any way,werent you a remainer??
KudosDave
yes, I was, although reluctantly. I see issues with both sides and EFTA a good compromise.
Davis reminds me of the aged sports master who has been told to attend an important function with the headmaster (Barnier) to discuss a subject which he knows nothing about,he is so uncomfortable.
KudosDave
no no no, you have me all wrong. I think EFTA would be better than 'no deal' but not as good as full membership of the EU.
What I'm trying to work out is why you think that we could be members of EFTA and not sign up to their principles and standards. I'd be happy to, but I can't see how you (and I mean the UK) can want to leave the EU for the reasons given, and then join EFTA. Its not a compromise.
I'll write this again:
Free movement of persons is one of the core freedoms of the European Internal Market. This area is covered by Article 28 of the EEA Agreement, Annex V on the Free Movement of Workers and Annex VIII on the Right of Establishment. Accordingly, nationals of the EEA EFTA States (Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) have the same right as EU citizens to take up an economic activity anywhere in the EU/EEA without being discriminated against on the grounds of their nationality. Equally, EU citizens have the right to work and reside in the EEA EFTA States. Non-economically active persons such as pensioners, students and family members of EEA nationals are also entitled to move and reside anywhere in the EU/EEA subject to certain conditions as set out in the relevant EU legislation.
So we'd actually have less control of our borders than we do now.
I don't understand how / why you think this would work?
EFTA gives to brexiters:
1. No ECJ. Pick and choose which directives and how much to implement.
2. a greater control on EU workers (priority given to locals) and benefits (eg contribute 4 years before able to claim).
3. Can sign trade deals with non EU countries
4. Enjoy existing trade deals between EFTA and about 37 countries.
5. Access to most of the single market
As I said before, existing members will welcome UK to rejoin them.
I think moderate brexiters and moderate remainers would welcome that route and that should be enough to give the solution an overall majority of acceptance.
Remainers should also see the success of EFTA as proof that there is prosperity outside the EU.
What is the point of cutting yourself off from the future? the EFTA is a temporary arrangement that will be absorbed in due course as the United States of Europe expands and absorbs it, but by then we will be about as important and influential as the legendary Duchy of Grand Fenwick from the Peter Sellers Film "The Mouse that Roared"
AKW suggested that we can't raise our standard to the same level of the current EFTA members. I take it to mean living/environmental standard. Remainers may have wished that we won't fit in EFTA, but what if we do?
I would have thought that our chance of success with the EFTA bunch is just as good if not a better fit with their ways.
I would have thought that our chance of success with the EFTA bunch is just as good if not a better fit with their ways.
Here is an admission from the Government that "Controlling our Borders" has gone with the wind
"
Brexit: UK plans to keep visa-free travel for EU nationals
Rather than border control, the UK Government believes restricting the availability of jobs to EU nationals and access to social security bring down immigration numbers
But they don't have access to Social Security, do they? so effectively the Government is confirming it isn't going to do a thing to control immigration, or even check who comes and goes.
What is left of Brexit now?
Some amusing readers comment under this article
"
At last a plan has come together. Leave the EU but not leave the EU, have full control of your borders but continue with freedom of movement, leave the customs Union but don't leave the customs Union, leave the single market but don't leave the single market. I'm sure the EU 27 won't have any problem with this whatsoever.
Ameria
Of course, it is exactly what the Brexit folk wanted except completely different.
Works for me as I believe the saying goes
"
Brexit: UK plans to keep visa-free travel for EU nationals
Rather than border control, the UK Government believes restricting the availability of jobs to EU nationals and access to social security bring down immigration numbers
But they don't have access to Social Security, do they? so effectively the Government is confirming it isn't going to do a thing to control immigration, or even check who comes and goes.
What is left of Brexit now?
Some amusing readers comment under this article
"
At last a plan has come together. Leave the EU but not leave the EU, have full control of your borders but continue with freedom of movement, leave the customs Union but don't leave the customs Union, leave the single market but don't leave the single market. I'm sure the EU 27 won't have any problem with this whatsoever.
Ameria
Of course, it is exactly what the Brexit folk wanted except completely different.
Works for me as I believe the saying goes
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I believe that they do, because secretly, our successive governments know that they are needed and very much wanted so keep the perks to entice them to come.
The number of hangers on is totally insignificant.
For the government it could be sellable, on the basis that we leave the EU but retain and even enhance our trading ability.
But hard core Brexiters won't be happy with the open borders, or the continuance with the ECJ influence, though this latter is inevitable for a very long time anyway as I've explained.
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We just have to be prepared to kiss Nissan, Honda etc, goodbye
We will anyway if we leave the EU.
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Sadly this entire train of thought smacks heavily of brexit wishful thinking. Norway said it would block any application by UK to join efta (it feels a larger economy joining would destabilise efta, and it has veto rights, Google it). The thing about conversations with brexiters, I find, is that it's absolutely chock full of ex post facto reasoning(to the exclusion of all else). It's a bit like a conversation with a car dealer that sold one a lemon, forever about digging up ostensible reasons why it isn't crap. You put together pedelecs for a specific niche I imagine? I can imagine that's about the right concept. Be brave, take a deep breath and a big step back and by analogy, admit to yourself that this concept (brexit) is a steaming heap of sh@t that should never have been actioned.
Finland is a case in point. Finland joins EFTA since 1986.
We would fit better with EFTA that does not seek to enlarge like the EU.
This is a quote from the Guardian a couple of weeks ago:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/02/uk-shortcut-free-trade-post-brexit
Efta, set up in 1960, consists of Switzerland, Norway, Lichtenstein and Iceland.
A report by the Swiss thinktank Foraus published this week argues that by joining Efta as an associate member in the manner of Finland, the UK would have access to its valuable free trade deals but would be able to avoid the EU’s rules on free movement. “It would allow the UK to preserve a status quo in non-EU trade, instead of starting from scratch” said Cenni Najy, a Foraus research fellow. “The natural house of Britain is Efta.”
Dave ship all your parts to Estonia before 2019 and have free access to the EU after Brexit
https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/estonia-e-residency-offers-brexit-brits-eu-loophole/
The problem is thisDave ship all your parts to Estonia before 2019 and have free access to the EU after Brexit
https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/estonia-e-residency-offers-brexit-brits-eu-loophole/
"Politically, many hurdles exist, including the need for existing Efta members to accept the UK’s application, "
They have already indicated we are not welcome and have a Veto
And it is still only a Fudge and unacceptable on the grounds of none of the advantages of membership of the EU on the rights, working conditions, and the Environment we currently have.
It would still leave us under the authority of an unfettered UK parliament who you can be sure have only their own interests at heart, at the expense of the public.
Just look at the way they changed sides over Brexit, and will again if it goes wrong.
Sorry but fudging things to keep the Brexit insanity going is unacceptable and always will be, and always work against the rights and future of the population, favouring the parasitic Political Elite and their Paymasters that runs this shambles of a country.
It will never achieve the Dream of a better life that people who voted for it are expecting, and no one will actually say anything more encouraging that make vague promises that things will be better after 10 years or so, which is fantastic as instantly advantageous results were promised at the time of the Referendum, and ALL promises made then have proven to be lies.
Brexit isn't even a Gamble, it's a proven loser already, like placing a bet on the last race putting your money on the horse that came in riderless after the others got back to the stables.
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Only hard brexiters want you to think that.
Members do have a veto. However, UK can join either EFTA or EEA after leaving the EU.
At a recent meeting of EFTA, their ministers said the UK is welcome to join.