Sorry OG I meant your Enigma machine...but seems you thought something else more appropriate..
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
You're doing it again! Can't you help it? all I said was that you ought to be able to spell, you chose the word, not me!
And now you attribute your meaning of choice to it too.
I merely pointed out your mistake.
Have you thought of working for the Tory Ministry of Misinformation? and have you also forgotten the situation we are in is what you voted for (yet)?
I don't know why OG tends to associate brexit voters with the tories.
there are probably more labour among brexiters than tories.
I'm sure give enough time they could have worked that out on their own!
Is 'Brexit' still a live issue.....do we have a crack team burning the candle at both ends resolutely attempting to ensure the UK gets a fantastic deal from the EU?
Obviously, I mean a top-notch group of statesmanlike political brains engaging in serious discussion, rather than a bunch of junkies in an opium den cooking their potion of choice a la George Osborne.
It all seems to have gone quiet so perhaps our motley crew are all confident that it won't require 2 years to secure the kind of amazing deal we have all been led to believe is there for the taking if we let the other side know who's boss.
Has it ever occurred to anyone that all the places we might wish to trade with post-'Brexit' will rob us blind? Once out of the EU, every other place in the world we wish to import goods from will know from the outset that we are desperate so they are going to jack up prices accordingly. Other trading nations will arrange secret consortia in the way of Opec, for example, to rig prices and share the available profits rather than cut each other's throats trying to secure our trade by the lowest price.
It seems to me that all the hype about 'great new opportunities' after 'Brexit' may well be true.....just not for us though!
Tom
Obviously, I mean a top-notch group of statesmanlike political brains engaging in serious discussion, rather than a bunch of junkies in an opium den cooking their potion of choice a la George Osborne.
It all seems to have gone quiet so perhaps our motley crew are all confident that it won't require 2 years to secure the kind of amazing deal we have all been led to believe is there for the taking if we let the other side know who's boss.
Has it ever occurred to anyone that all the places we might wish to trade with post-'Brexit' will rob us blind? Once out of the EU, every other place in the world we wish to import goods from will know from the outset that we are desperate so they are going to jack up prices accordingly. Other trading nations will arrange secret consortia in the way of Opec, for example, to rig prices and share the available profits rather than cut each other's throats trying to secure our trade by the lowest price.
It seems to me that all the hype about 'great new opportunities' after 'Brexit' may well be true.....just not for us though!
Tom
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Just spotted a "Daily Mail" in the filling station carrying the Headline
"At last a Prime Minister speaking honestly" and incredibly it was praising Teresa May and the Tory Manifesto.
The mind truly boggles...
Most of what she was suggesting was called "Project Fear" and now has become "Speaking Honestly?"
"At last a Prime Minister speaking honestly" and incredibly it was praising Teresa May and the Tory Manifesto.
The mind truly boggles...
Most of what she was suggesting was called "Project Fear" and now has become "Speaking Honestly?"
lol. yes the ability to read is important in solving crime isn't it....
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/theresa-may-internet-conservatives-government-a7744176.html
Well that looks like the end of the brexit thread then...
Well that looks like the end of the brexit thread then...
It is but as normal you miss the important issue.
OG and Tom blame everything on Brexit, when in reality most of their grievances should actually be aimed at our Tory government.(And the two are intertwined anyway, since it was a Tory incompetent who initiated it and a Tory fool who implemented the BS scare stories)
The process of lowering standards for workers has been going on for at least 15 years, erosion of pensions similar .
That process has gone on unabated by the EU. It will continue to do so in or out the EU until we see sense and vote in a caring ( perhaps socialist) government.
And by the way , another and important reason Labour is doing so poorly is fact country is very alienated against radicals; extremes of any kind; fundamentalists. Now I wonder who represents that description on here Tom. Your insistence on quoting AAV ,Canary etc etc continually actually does more harm than good for labour movement.Your reference to fascists is just so damaging.
Voting public don't want a red ken ; Scargil or who ever. Corbyn would be fine if he just sorted his election loosing stance on Defence,Nuclear Power and Brexit. The latter of which he still hasn't decided on.
What is ironic is all remainers moaning on here when actually they should be challenging labour hierarchy about their refusal to represent them. Its crazy on both scores.
I,ve said all along in or out is almost an irrelevance especially at side of fact country is a single party democracy at moment. That's what we should be moaning about. TM can ,and is doing, what she wants, knowing full well she is going to walk the election.
Labour is dead. Lib Dem are unelectable ,and a vote for them actually helps Tories!! Who do you vote for ?
As for TM controlling internet...about time...its a disgrace but she has no chance. It will win her,some support though.
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that is precisely what I did.I'm sure give enough time they could have worked that out on their own!
Over time, I make up the 'heat map' of your attacks on brexiters.
How hard is it to get through to you?
Try to understand before one of us dies, theres a good chap
BREXIT HAS PUT UNLIMITED POWER INTO THE HANDS OF THE TORY PARTY TO DO HARM.
IT HAS CUT US OFF FROM HAVING A DECENT FUTURE.
There, now tell me how that isn't true and we have a great future to look forward to.
I ask again, how has Brexit done anything more than damage both the present and the future.
You made nothing more than a wager on a loser, didn't you?
Where is the Silver lining to this cloud you have helped create? you didn't like something, so like a child you took a hammer to it, that is what Brexit is.
Self induced pain and suffering and no way out.
Idiotic
The Tory party have been putting more pressure on workers for less reward under worsening conditions with longer working lives for years. Where was your EU control when all that was going on.. And to be fair it:s not just been Tory's. Your mate Tony Blair started ball rolling increasing pension age. We both know its utter BS EU protects workers rights. They can only do so if government of day accept their rulings, the small benefits we have seen in certain areas, have been endorsed for window dressing. Fact is workers are worse off now than in early 80's.
You seem to think for some odd reason EU has been keeping a lid on worsening conditions. Absolute BS. Just ask a teacher, nurse, police officer,fire officer or shop worker...probably on a zero hours contract..
But no doubt you got your pension lat age you were promised..I,m alright Jack.
Current generation will work longer than you and I, for relatively less under more pressure and we are now seeing probably won't get a state pension either along with a back door IHT...What is EU doing about that..Nothing..they cant. Never could.
The EU could not care less about workers in other countries, they want wages driven down in some states ( formerly Countries) to supply cheap goods. That's what free movement is all about. They,ve just conned you thinking otherwise.
The only possible way we might see improving conditions for workers with a decent minimum wage, better working environment, pension age returned to what it was etc etc is with a change of government. Not staying in useless EU.
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Surely not, for example:Well that looks like the end of the brexit thread then...
We'll still be able to comment on the government's strong and stable mistakes.
We'll still be able to discuss the strong and stable growth rate of the national deficit due to Brexit .
And their strong and stable determination to tax us more we'll still be able to confirm with our personal examples.
We won't be able to speculate though. For example of something we won't be able to predict, having discovered that payback from future earnings is possible in the form of student loans, it's only a matter of time before they realise they can tax us now in advance of projected future earnings.
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I strongly object to this inclusion of Ken Livingstone, his was another case of someone being falsely smeared with a pack of lies. He was an excellent leader of the old and new GLCs and every bit as good as Mayor of London.
His "Fares, Fair" policy was highly successful and applauded even by motorists and other non-beneficiaries who paid towards it. His courage in introducing the congestion charge to get to grips with motor vehicles has also been widely praised, and his cycling initiatives that doubled London's cycling were another great success. So much so that tory Boris Johnson took them on and continued with them, so if Red Ken is true, then surely there's also Red Boris?
And it's so often ignored that it was Ken Livingstone who brought the IRA leaders to London for the initial peace discussions before either Thatcher or Blair got involved. He got heavily criticised for it, but as soon as his initiative made progress they were only too pleased to claim all the credit.
Jeremy Corbyn is another inspired man, but who is not being given a chance by character assassination and lies. Those who blindly believe the lies are the true enemies in our society.
We in London were wise enough to give Ken a chance four times and we've hugely benefitted from that ever since. We are after all by far the most successful part of the country. Now it's time for us to give Corbyn a chance of a five year spell to prove himself. Not to do so will be stupidly short sighted.
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.. as before I won't go into merits or otherwise of a Tory versus Labour government.. that's an internal matter. But I will try and take you up on a few other matters.
Workers and citizens better of in 1980 than 2016 .. you must be joking . Look at relative death rates over the ,years in question as the only realistic measure.
One of the few valid reasons to increase the age for pensions is that more of the population is living longer and with better health.
The EU has directed improvements in citizens and workers health and welfare at work. Yes its efforts have often been flustrated by the various national governments seeking derogations on so called national interests and were able to impose a veto on such grounds. That veto is effectively removed.
You are still avoiding the big question, how will brexit fix all those things?
It won't, it has in fact made the situation infinitely worse, and you are in denial.
What is your answer to sort out the mess you've made?
Unless the change of government puts us back into the EU it will make things worse long term, so that isn't much of an answer is it?
And unless the public have more sense than you have shown they will still keep us out in the backwater we are heading into.
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It wont with a Tory government.
Flecc
I wasn't criticizing Ken Livingstone, merely expressing opinion people ( rightly or wrongly) will not vote for anyone seen as radical or extreme. You know better than most its not always reality folk are put off by (or attracted to) its how they are perceived.
The labour movement has lost direction, doesn't know wether its tory light was with Blair, extreme left as with Livingstone or tolerant left as with Corbyn. Yes, the public have been misled,just as they have always been. Look how Scargil will be remembered... But on top of all that the labour movement is in complete disarray...people believe what they want to believe. The voting public would never support anything resembling extreme left. That's why Corbyn must moderate and give in on some issues. He wont, so he won't get in. Like I,ve said so many times we now have a one party democracy, and that is a way bigger issue than Brexit.
But don't moan at such as me...have a go at Corbyn, Blair and Abbot. They might be victims of right wing press but they make it easy for them and on top of that adopt policies that make them unelectable for mass majority of voters.