Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

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No I did not. I said they were powerless to stop worsening conditions and probably didn't want to.
Its you that cant see they real problem , which is ...no alternative to Tories...abd then ask why.. Because Blair lied about WMD, killed thousands of people, started a conflict that wont end in our lifetimes and because of this produced a complete U turn in labour thinking...giving us Corbyn. Both enelectable for completely different reasons but never the less destroying Labour..
Your arguments re Brexit are actually superflous. All things you worry about would, or could, happen whilst in EU..( ie just look at last 15 years OG)
Only because we had a Tory Government that made these bad things happen and resisted the EU's attempts to improve matters.
The arguments are not in any way Superfluous, for while we were in the EU there was a chance of improvement, out of it that has completely vanished, and now the only change will be not merely for the worse, but permanently so.
 
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oldgroaner

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They can offer lower wages because, as you put it, there are plenty waiting at the factory gates to do the job if you don't want it. EU membership has gifted us that and the associated zero hours contract and the lack of investment in training our youngsters
Are you arguing against yourself here?
The EU has nothing to do with what wages we offer, which will in any case be even more "Take it or leave it" and the Government has already stated effectively that anyone even vaguely Qualified in any skill can come and be welcome, as that saves the cost of training that "we" (them) are unable or more likely unwilling to pay.
That is the real reason behind using importing labour, it's a winner on cost all round including wages and that won't change after Brexit.

Zero Hours Contracts again are a UK phenomenon, and they will become Pandemic.
No one in the country can look forward to a job that will give them any security in Employment, conditions of work, or long term security to pay for a Pension

The only extra jobs will be seasonable fruit picking otherwise it will no change. on the jobs front.
Talk about kidding yourself! Brexit voters are due for a terrible disappointment in the near future.
 
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oldgroaner

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OG
Are you saying Brexit or our Tort government will lead to further exploitation of our workforce ? Or perhaps the combination ??
I ask because if you are attributing our leaving EU then where were the safeguards to stop raising of retirement age, worsening working conditions for teachers, nurses, doctors, fire service and civil servants, increasing retirement age for fire service,??Throughout all these your EU stopped nothing, so if it couldn't stop those how was it going to protect workers rights in future.
The writing was on the wall in many institutions that worsening conditions were coming fifteen years ago.I was one of lucky ones and had my own employment to fall back into. So yes what you say may well be correct, we might see worsening conditions under Brexit, but not because of Brexit. The process you state has been going on for years,in EU or out will make no difference. What is needed is a credible labour movement, which Blair destroyed. So when you level your complaints don't aim them at Brexit voters aim them at Blair, Campbell and even Corbyn..its simply because we don't have a caring government we are in a mess. Putting your hopes in such as Junker is just so naive. He,s as bad if not far worse than any of our current mob, and as Flecc argues ,EU hadn't the power to stop any worsening conditions . I don't think they want to but that's a different argument.
The reason the EU could not control these situations is the very thing the Government complains about and has conned the public with too.
It it the notion that when something goes wrong over which the EU has no authority, it nevetheless gets blamed for the Government of this countries Wrongdoing and we are told it is because of a fictional power the EU wield and "loss of Sovereignty to them" the Government can do nothing,

So your solution is to leave the EU where there was a long term hope of change for the better if they actually do gain some measure of Sovereignty over the excesses of local Government to being "Little England" where there isn't even a vestige of hope for improvement?
Great plan
Won't work, as there isn't a good reason for the Government to mend it's ways is there?
That's what I have against Brexit, the fact it is doomed to Fail.
 
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Woosh

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Who cares about France? it is no longer our concern, you should starrt worrying about what will happen here
I was planning to retire to the South of France in a couple of years.
I still can but it may be more expensive.
 
I was planning to retire to the South of France in a couple of years.
I still can but it may be more expensive.
have you managed to be able to predict the future? You have no idea what relationships between the UK and France will be in a couple of years. You might no meet their immigration criteria. Especially if the UK is stopping their citizens coming here, free movement is stopping isn't it?
 
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oldgroaner

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I was planning to retire to the South of France in a couple of years.
I still can but it may be more expensive.
Which strikes me as the wisest thing you have said thus far, for let's face it this country won't be a fit place to be on a permanent basis.
 
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anotherkiwi

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The European Union
Please stop saying the EU didn't do anything to prevent X,Y or Z from happening in the UK. The EU CAN'T do anything to stop national governments from implementing bad policies, it doesn't have the mandate!

There is a huge amount of information on the WWW about what the EU does and can do. You could read that then stop posting lies and false information here because you would know what it is able or not to do to make your life better. It doesn't have the mandate to make your life worse, that is left to national SOVEREIGN governments.
 

Woosh

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have you managed to be able to predict the future? You have no idea what relationships between the UK and France will be in a couple of years. You might no meet their immigration criteria. Especially if the UK is stopping their citizens coming here, free movement is stopping isn't it?
I can go back to France anytime I want.
 
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anotherkiwi

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The European Union
have you managed to be able to predict the future? You have no idea what relationships between the UK and France will be in a couple of years. You might no meet their immigration criteria. Especially if the UK is stopping their citizens coming here, free movement is stopping isn't it?
From what he has said he may have the double nationality. So some of his remarks on this thread would be kind of hypocritical.

I dream of being Spanish later in life.
 
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Woosh

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So some of his remarks on this thread would be kind of hypocritical.
yes, I accept that it is the case. Brexit does not affect me personally much other than the exchange rate for my pension.
 

Woosh

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the Pound will recover eventually as the future is less uncertain.
Honestly, how long do you think you can influence those around you? for me, it's only two more years. The future belongs to the younger generation(s).
 

oldgroaner

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the Pound will recover eventually as the future is less uncertain.
Honestly, how long do you think you can influence those around you? for me, it's only two more years. The future belongs to the younger generation(s).
While that is unquestionably true, they will not be impressed that we took the opportunity to let our own foolish urge to Gamble wreck it for them.

I'd prefer them not to spit on my grave figuratively speaking, though they may find that difficult to do since I entend to be cremated.
 
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Woosh

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Is there anything that Leave promised that's going to come true??

Europe's far right is down but not out.

OG, this is the typical news analysis that I read.
This one is from a staffer at AFP, the agency that my daughter works for.
It's nothing like the trash you read every morning and inform us what the leave camp is up to.

ps://www.yahoo.com/news/europes-far-down-not-133259838.html

Vienna (AFP) - After Austria and the Netherlands, the defeat of France's Marine Le Pen in a presidential run-off is a new blow for the European far-right, but its march to power is far from over, analysts say.

Victory appeared tantalisingly close for the 48-year-old, who had hoped to finish on Sunday what her father had failed to achieve in 2002: win the election's second round and save "the French civilisation" from the clutches of globalisation.

Her campaign tapped into fears over high unemployment, immigration and the rising threat of jihadist terror attacks.

But Le Pen's intention to leave the eurozone proved a red flag to many and the presidential crown went to the pro-EU Emmanuel Macron, who bagged 66 percent of the vote against his rival's 34 percent.

The French outcome is the third setback for Europe's far-right in six months.

In December, Austrian Norbert Hofer of the Freedom Party (FPOe) failed narrowly to win a presidential re-run vote.

This was followed by the defeat in March of anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders in Dutch elections.

But some analysts say these are just stumbling blocks for the far-right, which has been buoyed by Britain's decision to quit the European Union and Donald Trump's upset victory in the US election.

Far-right movements "exert their influence not by governing, but by constraining the room for manoeuvre for centrist parties," said Carsten Nickel of the Teneo think-tank in Brussels.

"We can't talk of a bad year for the far-right. In Austria, Hofer got close to 50 percent. In the Dutch case, the traditional centre-left has been completely wiped out and Geert Wilders is a serious player in parliament," he added.

Wilders' Freedom Party gained five seats in March, making it the second-largest party in the Dutch parliament with 20 MPs.

And while Macron's win against Le Pen was "a good result", it's "much weaker" than the crushing defeat suffered by her father Jean-Marie Le Pen at the hands of Jacques Chirac in 2002, Nickel said.

In fact, Sunday's result was the highest-ever score in a presidential election in the FN's 44-year history.

In her concession speech, Marine Le Pen hailed the FN as France's main opposition player and proclaimed a new faultline has been drawn "between patriots and globalists".

"Let's not fool ourselves: the score shows that... there is a real desire for far-right extremism in the population," French historian Nicolas Lebourg told French newspaper Liberation on Monday.

- 'You will win' -

Le Pen's European allies also struck a decidedly optimistic tone.

"Well done anyway, millions of patriots voted for you! You will win - and so will I," Wilders messaged Le Pen on Twitter.

"Thanks Marine Le Pen, those who fight never lose," Matteo Salvini of Italy's far-right Northern League wrote in a Facebook post.

In Austria, FPOe leader Heinz-Christan Strache said the result paved the way for another "historic" success in France's parliamentary elections in June.

The FPOe itself is riding high in opinion polls and hopes to win Austria's parliamentary elections due in late 2018.

Austrian Chancellor Christian Kern, a Social Democrat, cautioned that Macron's win was merely a "stage victory".

Le Pen "still took more than a third of the votes cast, and the consensus is that she will be a far more significant force come 2022 if France follows its current economic trajectory," London-based economic analyst Peter Ashton said.

European media outlets also warned against minimising the anti-EU threat.

"Far-right populists in Austria, the Netherlands, Germany and France... are probably stronger than ever and nothing indicates that they will disappear," said Sweden's Svenska Dagbladet.

"Mr Macron needs to show the French people that he is indeed the alternative they were waiting for. If he cannot, Ms Le Pen or perhaps another Le Pen will be waiting," said Britain's Times newspaper.

- Slow progress -

Nonetheless observers say fears of the far-right destroying the European Union have proven unfounded.

"The recent elections have shown that the far-right doesn't suddenly sweep away traditional parties but takes root progressively," Berlin-based analyst Josef Janning told AFP.

"Even if people feel uneasy about globalisation, the economy and immigration, they understand that the far-right offers more wishful thinking than credible strategies to solve these problems," he said.


According to Janning, this explains why Le Pen announced on Sunday that the FN would be transformed into a "new political force".

"She senses that she cannot afford another major loss so I see her trying to capture the conservative spectrum."

For some, the political overhaul could mean a new FN leader.

The "defeat will be politically fatal for Le Pen. Her oppenents inside the party and even in her own family will make her pay the price," wrote Italian journalist Bernardo Valli in the Repubblica newspaper.

burs-nla-smk/boc
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Europe's far right is down but not out.

OG, this is the typical news analysis that I read.
This one is from a staffer at AFP, the agency that my daughter works for.
It's nothing like the trash you read every morning and inform us what the leave camp is up to.

ps://www.yahoo.com/news/europes-far-down-not-133259838.html

Vienna (AFP) - After Austria and the Netherlands, the defeat of France's Marine Le Pen in a presidential run-off is a new blow for the European far-right, but its march to power is far from over, analysts say.

Victory appeared tantalisingly close for the 48-year-old, who had hoped to finish on Sunday what her father had failed to achieve in 2002: win the election's second round and save "the French civilisation" from the clutches of globalisation.

Her campaign tapped into fears over high unemployment, immigration and the rising threat of jihadist terror attacks.

But Le Pen's intention to leave the eurozone proved a red flag to many and the presidential crown went to the pro-EU Emmanuel Macron, who bagged 66 percent of the vote against his rival's 34 percent.

The French outcome is the third setback for Europe's far-right in six months.

In December, Austrian Norbert Hofer of the Freedom Party (FPOe) failed narrowly to win a presidential re-run vote.

This was followed by the defeat in March of anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders in Dutch elections.

But some analysts say these are just stumbling blocks for the far-right, which has been buoyed by Britain's decision to quit the European Union and Donald Trump's upset victory in the US election.

Far-right movements "exert their influence not by governing, but by constraining the room for manoeuvre for centrist parties," said Carsten Nickel of the Teneo think-tank in Brussels.

"We can't talk of a bad year for the far-right. In Austria, Hofer got close to 50 percent. In the Dutch case, the traditional centre-left has been completely wiped out and Geert Wilders is a serious player in parliament," he added.

Wilders' Freedom Party gained five seats in March, making it the second-largest party in the Dutch parliament with 20 MPs.

And while Macron's win against Le Pen was "a good result", it's "much weaker" than the crushing defeat suffered by her father Jean-Marie Le Pen at the hands of Jacques Chirac in 2002, Nickel said.

In fact, Sunday's result was the highest-ever score in a presidential election in the FN's 44-year history.

In her concession speech, Marine Le Pen hailed the FN as France's main opposition player and proclaimed a new faultline has been drawn "between patriots and globalists".

"Let's not fool ourselves: the score shows that... there is a real desire for far-right extremism in the population," French historian Nicolas Lebourg told French newspaper Liberation on Monday.

- 'You will win' -

Le Pen's European allies also struck a decidedly optimistic tone.

"Well done anyway, millions of patriots voted for you! You will win - and so will I," Wilders messaged Le Pen on Twitter.

"Thanks Marine Le Pen, those who fight never lose," Matteo Salvini of Italy's far-right Northern League wrote in a Facebook post.

In Austria, FPOe leader Heinz-Christan Strache said the result paved the way for another "historic" success in France's parliamentary elections in June.

The FPOe itself is riding high in opinion polls and hopes to win Austria's parliamentary elections due in late 2018.

Austrian Chancellor Christian Kern, a Social Democrat, cautioned that Macron's win was merely a "stage victory".

Le Pen "still took more than a third of the votes cast, and the consensus is that she will be a far more significant force come 2022 if France follows its current economic trajectory," London-based economic analyst Peter Ashton said.

European media outlets also warned against minimising the anti-EU threat.

"Far-right populists in Austria, the Netherlands, Germany and France... are probably stronger than ever and nothing indicates that they will disappear," said Sweden's Svenska Dagbladet.

"Mr Macron needs to show the French people that he is indeed the alternative they were waiting for. If he cannot, Ms Le Pen or perhaps another Le Pen will be waiting," said Britain's Times newspaper.

- Slow progress -

Nonetheless observers say fears of the far-right destroying the European Union have proven unfounded.

"The recent elections have shown that the far-right doesn't suddenly sweep away traditional parties but takes root progressively," Berlin-based analyst Josef Janning told AFP.

"Even if people feel uneasy about globalisation, the economy and immigration, they understand that the far-right offers more wishful thinking than credible strategies to solve these problems," he said.


According to Janning, this explains why Le Pen announced on Sunday that the FN would be transformed into a "new political force".

"She senses that she cannot afford another major loss so I see her trying to capture the conservative spectrum."

For some, the political overhaul could mean a new FN leader.

The "defeat will be politically fatal for Le Pen. Her oppenents inside the party and even in her own family will make her pay the price," wrote Italian journalist Bernardo Valli in the Repubblica newspaper.

burs-nla-smk/boc
Sounds like the far right trying to draw some comfort after a bigger defeat than they expected.

The only thing that counts is winning, they got defeated in The Netherlands, now defeated in France, and we've seen UKIP utterly destroyed in our local elections. We can guarantee the far right will lose in Germany shortly.

Even in strongly fascist Austria their leader Norbert Hofer could only just top a third of the vote in the first round and was ultimately defeated a few months ago.

When it comes to the crunch, the people of Europe are sensible enough not to make this fascist mistake again.
.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
Europe's far right is down but not out.

OG, this is the typical news analysis that I read.
This one is from a staffer at AFP, the agency that my daughter works for.
It's nothing like the trash you read every morning and inform us what the leave camp is up to.

ps://www.yahoo.com/news/europes-far-down-not-133259838.html

Vienna (AFP) - After Austria and the Netherlands, the defeat of France's Marine Le Pen in a presidential run-off is a new blow for the European far-right, but its march to power is far from over, analysts say.

Victory appeared tantalisingly close for the 48-year-old, who had hoped to finish on Sunday what her father had failed to achieve in 2002: win the election's second round and save "the French civilisation" from the clutches of globalisation.

Her campaign tapped into fears over high unemployment, immigration and the rising threat of jihadist terror attacks.

But Le Pen's intention to leave the eurozone proved a red flag to many and the presidential crown went to the pro-EU Emmanuel Macron, who bagged 66 percent of the vote against his rival's 34 percent.

The French outcome is the third setback for Europe's far-right in six months.

In December, Austrian Norbert Hofer of the Freedom Party (FPOe) failed narrowly to win a presidential re-run vote.

This was followed by the defeat in March of anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders in Dutch elections.

But some analysts say these are just stumbling blocks for the far-right, which has been buoyed by Britain's decision to quit the European Union and Donald Trump's upset victory in the US election.

Far-right movements "exert their influence not by governing, but by constraining the room for manoeuvre for centrist parties," said Carsten Nickel of the Teneo think-tank in Brussels.

"We can't talk of a bad year for the far-right. In Austria, Hofer got close to 50 percent. In the Dutch case, the traditional centre-left has been completely wiped out and Geert Wilders is a serious player in parliament," he added.

Wilders' Freedom Party gained five seats in March, making it the second-largest party in the Dutch parliament with 20 MPs.

And while Macron's win against Le Pen was "a good result", it's "much weaker" than the crushing defeat suffered by her father Jean-Marie Le Pen at the hands of Jacques Chirac in 2002, Nickel said.

In fact, Sunday's result was the highest-ever score in a presidential election in the FN's 44-year history.

In her concession speech, Marine Le Pen hailed the FN as France's main opposition player and proclaimed a new faultline has been drawn "between patriots and globalists".

"Let's not fool ourselves: the score shows that... there is a real desire for far-right extremism in the population," French historian Nicolas Lebourg told French newspaper Liberation on Monday.

- 'You will win' -

Le Pen's European allies also struck a decidedly optimistic tone.

"Well done anyway, millions of patriots voted for you! You will win - and so will I," Wilders messaged Le Pen on Twitter.

"Thanks Marine Le Pen, those who fight never lose," Matteo Salvini of Italy's far-right Northern League wrote in a Facebook post.

In Austria, FPOe leader Heinz-Christan Strache said the result paved the way for another "historic" success in France's parliamentary elections in June.

The FPOe itself is riding high in opinion polls and hopes to win Austria's parliamentary elections due in late 2018.

Austrian Chancellor Christian Kern, a Social Democrat, cautioned that Macron's win was merely a "stage victory".

Le Pen "still took more than a third of the votes cast, and the consensus is that she will be a far more significant force come 2022 if France follows its current economic trajectory," London-based economic analyst Peter Ashton said.

European media outlets also warned against minimising the anti-EU threat.

"Far-right populists in Austria, the Netherlands, Germany and France... are probably stronger than ever and nothing indicates that they will disappear," said Sweden's Svenska Dagbladet.

"Mr Macron needs to show the French people that he is indeed the alternative they were waiting for. If he cannot, Ms Le Pen or perhaps another Le Pen will be waiting," said Britain's Times newspaper.

- Slow progress -

Nonetheless observers say fears of the far-right destroying the European Union have proven unfounded.

"The recent elections have shown that the far-right doesn't suddenly sweep away traditional parties but takes root progressively," Berlin-based analyst Josef Janning told AFP.

"Even if people feel uneasy about globalisation, the economy and immigration, they understand that the far-right offers more wishful thinking than credible strategies to solve these problems," he said.


According to Janning, this explains why Le Pen announced on Sunday that the FN would be transformed into a "new political force".

"She senses that she cannot afford another major loss so I see her trying to capture the conservative spectrum."

For some, the political overhaul could mean a new FN leader.

The "defeat will be politically fatal for Le Pen. Her oppenents inside the party and even in her own family will make her pay the price," wrote Italian journalist Bernardo Valli in the Repubblica newspaper.

burs-nla-smk/boc
And you regard this as impartial?
"Vienna (AFP) - After Austria and the Netherlands, the defeat of France's Marine Le Pen in a presidential run-off is a new blow for the European far-right, but its march to power is far from over, analysts say.

March to power
is a deliberately emotive and canted view from someone interested in pushing the cause it is allegedly reporting on, that has just suffered a catastrophic defeat.
The sympathy of the reporter is pretty darned plain from that terminology

And this
"The recent elections have shown that the far-right doesn't suddenly sweep away traditional parties but takes root progressively," Berlin-based analyst Josef Janning told AFP."
What a strange remark to come from a Berlin based analyst who seems to have a poor grasp of history after what happened in the case of an Austrian fella with a strange moustache.
one election was all he needed.
Bogus Patriotism and promoting the use of fear of a Foreign Foe among the public to motivate the masses and endanger peace wherever they appear.

The far right are an insidious bunch that need to be treated with the contempt they deserve and kept away from power, hopefully using diplomatic means.

In the past we had to resort to Extreme Prejudice on an international scale to remove them once they became established.

Sorry bit it seems very much like the trash we get here to me
 
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Only because we had a Tory Government that made these bad things happen and resisted the EU's attempts to improve matters.
The arguments are not in any way Superfluous, for while we were in the EU there was a chance of improvement, out of it that has completely vanished, and now the only change will be not merely for the worse, but permanently so.
Just explain to me your optimism over EU having any affect what so ever when we have seen teachers conditions of service worsen with much higher work loads, longer working hours and a relative cut in pay to point where they are contemplating strike action. ( got to be bad when NUT back that). Fire service have seen longer hours imposed. ( changes in watch times) along with much reduced pension rights ( ie fire personal now work til past 60, not sure how that will pan out in a few years). Police have seen worse conditions forced on them..as have both local government and central government workers, on top of which pension age has gone up. On top of all this is now inflation over and above pay rises...so pray tell us OG what was your optimism over the great EU based on. They simply do not care, you have swallowed their propoganda hook line and sinker..

EU has done nothing in UK for working class, unless you call having to wear hi viz jackets progress.

You lay blame continually at far right extremism. Absolute none sense. Those idiots Tom posted have no effect on country at all. Zilch. The right wing press, well perhaps they influence a few..who knows...but again please explain to me why even such as yourself will vote lib Dem this election...because there is no Labour to vote for !!!! Right wing press could stop saying anything, print nothing at all, say nothing on web sites. Labour would still get nowhere..because its floundering..caught between the Hawk Blair and the Dove Corbyn..Labour is dead, and will be untill it gets a politically astute leader with politically astute voters.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
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Just explain to me your optimism over EU having any affect what so ever when we have seen teachers conditions of service worsen with much higher work loads, longer working hours and a relative cut in pay to point where they are contemplating strike action. ( got to be bad when NUT back that). Fire service have seen longer hours imposed. ( changes in watch times) along with much reduces pension rights ( ie fire personal bow work til past 60, not sure how that will pan out in a few years). Police have seen worse conditions forced on them..as have both local government and central government workers, on top of which pension age has gone up. On top of all this is now inflation over and above pay rises...so pray tell us OG what was your optimism over the great EU based on. They simply do not care, you have swallowed their propoganda hook line and sinker..

EU has done nothing in UK for working class, unless you call having to wear hi viz jackets progress.
I really don't know why I bother with you, perhaps reading this link will help you
https://www.theguardian.com/money/work-blog/2013/jan/24/europe-legacy-uk-workplaces
But as usual you will simply deny everything
So here is something else for you to deny
http://www.kwm.com/~/media/SjBerwin/Files/Knowledge/Downloads/uk/2016/03/16/kwm-lawyers-in-for-britain-report.pdf
It wont break through the barrier of your prejudice, though will it?
You don't really understand what the EU has the power to do, or not do, what is, or can become either with your "Little Englander" outlook.
You will find out soon enough the enormity of your mistake in trusting the fate of the nation to the Westminster Flying Circus at it's rabid worst.
The first thing to go will be Human Rights......
 
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