that remains to be seen. Your constant putting down of brexit arguments as fake news seems to me like a lack of due diligence.
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
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Quite the opposite in fact, the arguments in favour of brexit are invariably illogical and fail to stand up to even cursory scrutiny
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as you said many times, brexit hasn't happened yet and you can already predict with certainty its failure.
Can you really be certain based on cursory scrutiny? I wouldn't be so bold and yet, I probably spent a lot more time than you examining both sides of the argument.
Of course the UK can exist as a country out side of the EU. The questions are will it be a better country? And for which citizens?
It is pretty safe to guess that it will be a failure for those on the bottom of the income scale (in full time employment of course). You just need to look at Germany, a successful economy but with 7.1% of those in full time employment living below the poverty line to confirm that thesis. The UK seems to want to follow the US model (uberisation) and the number of full time employed working poor is over 12% there, over 13% in the services sector. These are all countries with low rates of unemployment.
It is pretty safe to guess that it will be a failure for those on the bottom of the income scale (in full time employment of course). You just need to look at Germany, a successful economy but with 7.1% of those in full time employment living below the poverty line to confirm that thesis. The UK seems to want to follow the US model (uberisation) and the number of full time employed working poor is over 12% there, over 13% in the services sector. These are all countries with low rates of unemployment.
that is a sweeping statement.
those on the bottom of the income scale, you may divide into the unemployed, the part time employed and the just about managing. Controlling immigration will have an overall effect of lifting the minimum wages and reducing unemployment for the unskilled. I expect it will benefit the first two groups and may be neutral to the third group.
The middle income group (above the JAMs) may be hit by brexit though a combination of short term low growth and larger budget deficit. In the medium term (10 years after brexit), these problems will ease.
Inverse logic at work, as the situation for those at the bottom will be the same as it was when I was born.
Take the job and accept dreadful wages, there are hundreds more waiting outside to take your place and no Unions any more to protect you.
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You really MUST stop Dreaming and face reality!
Brexit will be dire in terms of wages and conditions.
That is the Reason the Torys Want it!
They will claim the Dreadful EU have forced them reluctantly to force down wages and laugh all the way to the bank, and the public voted for that but it will only be temporary
And we know what that means.
For crying out loud why else do you think they do?
Out of a Charitable impulse?
Tell me, what is to stop them doing exactly what I described? and don't bother with the Hoary answer we can always vote them out.
We haven't so far, have we? they will play the public like a puppet to achieve their ends under the excuse we have no option it has been forced on us, and after all you voted for it, didn't you?
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It doesn't take a Clairvoyant to see why the Torys want Brexit, they intend to set the clock back to the point before Unions came on the scene to better the lives of the workers.
You may well have spent a long time thinking about it, but got the wrong answer in the process.
You are living in a Dream.
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OG, you are very much the opposite of me. I take time to try to understand why poorer voters want out. Trust me, they are poor but not turkeys voting for Christmas.
As I said, there is a consensus among economists that immigration control uplifts the minimum wages.
Try to look it up than reasoning by instinct.
As I said, there is a consensus among economists that immigration control uplifts the minimum wages.
Try to look it up than reasoning by instinct.
Sorry but you are the one employing make believe without understanding the situation which is clear as crystal.
Poorer voters wanted out of this Government on the basis it wanted to stay in the EU so they didn't, the fact that they have been convinced otherwise doesn't undermine the original imperative.
They felt they were being mistreated and blamed the wrong source of their perceived ills as they were intended to.
They have after all been fed the same lies for a Generation, is it any wonder they tend to believe them?
That is how right wing Governments work, spreading fear of the Foreigner to further their agenda.
And now we are getting all sorts of Crackpot theories that the Tory party will be the saviour of the Nation.
Sorry but that is nonsense, it is not their intent at all, never was, never will be.
It seems one can be an "economist" and still only toe the party line, but that is hardly news is it?
Perhaps if these "Economists" learned about the Nature of right wing politicians they would change their Guesstimates.
So now you say people have to suffer for 10 years to prove a Lunatic bet was worth while?
Oh isn't that just Dandy?
the facts are clear, you just want to see what you want to see. Among those facts, an important one: the poorer the voter, the higher percentage voting for brexit.
A second fact: the people who voted for brexit (not me though) would still do same today that a lot more about brexit is better known.
Do you still think they are turkeys voting for Christmas?
I can't say whether it's worthwhile because brexit hasn't happened and there are many unknowns. Probably yes for the poorest citizens among us. The word suffer will not probably be a correct description for the vast majority. The effect of brexit on the better off will not be as much as the improvement in economic prospects for the poorest among us.
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Marine le Pen vanquished with barely over a third of the vote.
So much for the advance of the right in politics, first despatched in The Netherlands and now sent packing in France. Shortly the same will certainly happen in Germany.
I wish our electorate had the same good sense.
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So much for the advance of the right in politics, first despatched in The Netherlands and now sent packing in France. Shortly the same will certainly happen in Germany.
I wish our electorate had the same good sense.
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I am happy that Macron won. Le Pen got 34% of the popular vote, she will likely become leader of the opposition in just over a month. If the second round were between Fillon and Macron, Fillon would have won. About 4 million votes were spoiled, most of those probably would have voted for Melenchon (Corbynite) in the first round.
How well Macron can win enough support to form the next government remains to be seen. France is still pre-occupied by the same issues that brought about brexit. If Macron cannot solve the problem of 10% unemployment and terrorism soon, Marine will be back in 5 years time, much, much stronger.
Note that the polls were pretty accurate in France.
How well Macron can win enough support to form the next government remains to be seen. France is still pre-occupied by the same issues that brought about brexit. If Macron cannot solve the problem of 10% unemployment and terrorism soon, Marine will be back in 5 years time, much, much stronger.
Note that the polls were pretty accurate in France.
The French vote was still a protest vote. Don't understand mechanism of French elections, yes its different to ours...but imagine Clegg and Farage going through to final two...thats about the gist of it. Macron now has to find his party leaders...which is the bit I don't follow. Does he form a government with the few he has or does he lead folk not from his party. Its a first in France. ( no major party involved in final vote)
there will be no "improvement in economic Prospect" except for the Elite that profit from selling off the NHS and everything else they can dispose of
Your comparison of Macron with Clegg is very good. His party 'en marche' won't win a majority in the French legislative election June 18th.
His winning will be marred by the ambiguity of his politics. He will be opposed by a very large number of French MPs and senators from the PS, the republicans and Le Pen's.
Macron was a PS member until last year when he resigned and formed his 'on the move' party. He's got support both from the PS and from the republicans in the presidential elections but that support is much reduced as of today.
He will have to form a temporary cabinet ready to take over in about 10-14 days, probably half from the PS and the rest from the republicans then reshuffle after June 18th. Then the hard slog begins.
OG, have you ever tried to live on the minimum wage?
If you did, you wouldn't have had time to worry about who profits from the NHS contracts.
Thoughtless remark of the Day award for you on that one!
When I started work I earned £10 a month, and in the company I worked for you didn't come on to full adult salary till you reached 25 years of age
Ironically the very year I did that requirement went down to 21.
There was no fixed pay scale, the man or woman next to you could be on better wages if his or her face fitted better and to top it all the company refused to recognise our right to belong to a Union till we went on strike for eighteen weeks without pay relying on the Charity of Unions we couldn't even join, and of course the Company tried to sack us all.
As to our circumstances
We married at Twenty and had to wait Seven Years to afford to have Children as the wages were so poor, and in our first years the last week before Monthly Payday regularly lived on French toast and Baked beans.
I was born before the NHS came in, without a Doctor in someone else's house as mother had been bombed out twice while carrying me.
How dare you make such unthinking remarks?
The purpose of Brexit is to bring back those "Good old days"
One of the faults of modern people is that they have no idea of the true circumstances many of my generation went through and assume we do not have very valid reasons for the attitudes we hold.
We understand only too well the workings of the Tory mind and what it's objectives are, and no amount of lies and propaganda can change that.
To answer your Question We went hungry on a darned sight less that the minimum wage for many years and worried how to keep the kids fed, and clothed, and even then cared about the NHS.
The NHS saved my life when I had Prostate Cancer, which could easily come back
Which to me is about as compelling a reason to care about it as there could possibly be, regardless of my financial circumstances.
OG, I have experienced worse than just living in poverty but I spare you the details. Suffice to say that most of the people who work with me are in the groups that have more pressing concerns than socialism.