Brexit, for once some facts.

Woosh

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.
The message on the red bus was a lie..
yes, and a deliberate one at that. It was a well known tactic, used by people in election-engineering. You put up a half truth, your opponents jump on it because it's easy for them to pick on but because it contains some element of truth so it invites debate, thus the media repeats the message for you for free better than you could do yourself. The message is less about the number than what such an amount of money would buy. Should it be spent by the EU or by the NHS?
Faced with such a comparison, remain failed to convince a lot of people why we should pay to join the EU.
 

oldgroaner

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The right wing press has cottoned very early on the fact that it's counter-productive to insult the intelligence of your opponents. Nothing makes people going out to vote against you more than calling them idiots which the remain press did and still do abundantly even now.
You must have been oblivious to the "Remoaner" propaganda campaign to even consider coming out with the statement you did without giving it some thought.

Do you imagine the Remain voters are going to change side because they are portrayed as "Whingers" moaners, bad losers "opposing the will of the people" and traitors?

If you are going to resort to this sort of thing just what sort of mental attitude do you imagine you yourself are presenting?

And finally the icing on the cake.
" which the remain press did and still do abundantly even now."

Which press would that be?
The Sun
The Daily Mail
The Daily Express
The Daily Mirror
The Daily Star.

Or was it some relatively mild comments on the Guardian and Independent?
The balance of Propaganda must be 75% pro leave by anybodies count and that goes for being insulting to the opposition too.

But you have proved one thing Right wing lies have really got to you.
I'll be kind... you've been misled.
 
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Woosh

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Which press would that be?
The Sun
The Daily Mail
The Daily Express
The Daily Mirror
The Daily Star.
You may have read them, not I.
I have never bought any of them and never care for what they write in their rags.
Unlike you, I am not blinkered.
 
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oldgroaner

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You may have read them, not I.
I have never bought any of them and never care for what they write in their rags.
Unlike you, I am not blinkered.
Then why are you repeating propaganda? These alleged remarks are all in the press, if you don't read it, what is the source of your information?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
 
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Woosh

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Not quite directly of the horse's mouth but you and oldtom quote them often enough.
You two should stop calling brexiters idiots.
 
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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You must have been oblivious to the "Remoaner" propaganda campaign to even consider coming out with the statement you did without giving it some thought.

Do you imagine the Remain voters are going to change side because they are portrayed as "Whingers" moaners, bad losers "opposing the will of the people" and traitors?

If you are going to resort to this sort of thing just what sort of mental attitude do you imagine you yourself are presenting?

And finally the icing on the cake.
" which the remain press did and still do abundantly even now."

Which press would that be?
The Sun
The Daily Mail
The Daily Express
The Daily Mirror
The Daily Star.

Or was it some relatively mild comments on the Guardian and Independent?
The balance of Propaganda must be 75% pro leave by anybodies count and that goes for being insulting to the opposition too.

But you have proved one thing Right wing lies have really got to you.
I'll be kind... you've been misled.
Well do something if you truly believe that OG. Its pointless just saying same old same old. You,ce got your chance. Start canvassing, join a Lib Dem group. You have your vote and the right to persuade others how to use theirs. Moaning on here is utterly futile.
May has given remainers another chance. Don't waste it OG...and then come back on here in July ( after whoever has had chance to go to Queern and form new government) with the same old bile...
You seem rather paranoid OG, " they are all against me"
And you overestimate the power of those papers you mention. Their combined circulation is dwarfed by 2 hrs on google..papers are yesterdays media. Move on OG.
And you should stop calling leavers idiots.
And neither you or Tom have answered either of my questions.
 
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oldgroaner

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Not quite directly of the horse's mouth but you and oldtom quote them often enough.
You two should stop calling brexiters idiots.
Be so good as to quote one of my posts where I did so, there's a good chap.
I grow weary of hearing misleading claims like that, consistently I have referred to them as being misled and worngly informed.
Sadly this is how Urban legends form, a mistruth is repeated and sees to take on the appearance of truth.
Try to understand before one of us dies.
Tom calls them Brexidiots.
I say they have been misled, lied to and have had false promises made to them and they will not gain from Brexit.
They are mistaken in the belief that they will

I have every sympathy for their situation, but they are facing disappointment and trouble will ensue..
 
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Woosh

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Be so good as to quote one of my posts where I did so, there's a good chap.
I grow weary of hearing misleading claims like that, consistently I have referred to them as being misled and worngly informed.
Sadly this is how Urban legends form, a mistruth is repeated and sees to take on the appearance of truth.
Try to understand before one of us dies.
Tom calls them Brexidiots.
I say they have been misled, lied to and have had false promises made to them and they will not gain from Brexit.
They are mistaken in the belief that they will

I have every sympathy for their situation, but they are facing disappointment and trouble will ensue..
you are correct, oldtom called them idiots, not you.
I am sorry, I apologize unreservedly for my mistake.
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
So there can be no mistake, this is the person who has called an early election, exploiting the weakness in the main opposition party at the present time. Fair play to her; she is taking a risk, though probably only a small risk but a lot of politics might just occur between now and June and Mrs May's track record isn't really very good. She may find that the election turns out to be less about 'Brexit' and more about her party's position on their policies about the NHS, schools, austerity and the things that make people angry about a government which simply represents big business and banking.

18057084_531613093893205_8091872056308784139_n.jpg

Tom
 

oldgroaner

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you are correct, oldtom called them idiots, not you.
I am sorry, I apologize unreservedly for my mistake.
Thank you for that , apology accepted and received with thanks, it takes a gentleman or lady to do what you just did, again, my thanks.
 
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oldgroaner

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A little jolly thought to start the day


Well whatever happens it will, won't it?
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
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
I can't make up my mind why May has called this election..
I see a number of possibilities....
1 That she sees that post Brexit is going to be a disaster, NHS in a mess, desperately short of tax take, the northern poor on verge of austerity riots,.... not a good time to enter a GE.
2. That the hard Brexiters like IDS and Redwood will object to any compromises away from hard Brexit,especially the 50 billion
Payment.
3. That the soft Brexiters in the Tories still really remainers, will stop May doing a hard Brexit.
I think she hopes the GE will join all those opposing directions.
But she is gambling building a bigger majority,
Labour may make gains in the poor north and Liberals may make gains in Remain seats.
KudosDave
 
I can't make up my mind why May has called this election..
I see a number of possibilities....
1 That she sees that post Brexit is going to be a disaster, NHS in a mess, desperately short of tax take, the northern poor on verge of austerity riots,.... not a good time to enter a GE.
2. That the hard Brexiters like IDS and Redwood will object to any compromises away from hard Brexit,especially the 50 billion
Payment.
3. That the soft Brexiters in the Tories still really remainers, will stop May doing a hard Brexit.
I think she hopes the GE will join all those opposing directions.
But she is gambling building a bigger majority,
Labour may make gains in the poor north and Liberals may make gains in Remain seats.
KudosDave
Agreed, she had to look at going full term and taking a General Election then. If she though Brexit was a positive, she'd wait surely and enjoy the glory.

They've clearly looked at the time from now to 2020 and realised now is the best time.

The news keeps coming and its not going to get any better is it??

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15236404.Drinks_giant_Diageo_to_axe_more_than_100_jobs_because_of_Brexit__says_union/
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,381
16,877
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
I can't make up my mind why May has called this election..
I see a number of possibilities....
1 That she sees that post Brexit is going to be a disaster, NHS in a mess, desperately short of tax take, the northern poor on verge of austerity riots,.... not a good time to enter a GE.
2. That the hard Brexiters like IDS and Redwood will object to any compromises away from hard Brexit,especially the 50 billion
Payment.
3. That the soft Brexiters in the Tories still really remainers, will stop May doing a hard Brexit.
I think she hopes the GE will join all those opposing directions.
But she is gambling building a bigger majority,
Labour may make gains in the poor north and Liberals may make gains in Remain seats.
KudosDave
it seems that she has not got much choice. About a dozen tory MPs may be taken to Court over undeclared election spending, that may result in a dozen by-elections that she does not want nor need. She may have lost her slim majority in parliament by next year.
The public finance in the next two years leading to brexit is going to be even tighter than it is this year, inflation would have hit hard, voters will believe that she is not a good PM, labour leadership may have changed hand, the opposition may get stronger now that brexit is no longer a big issue.
Basically, if she didn't trigger the new GE, she may become a sitting duck.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
it seems that she has not got much choice. About a dozen tory MPs may be taken to Court over undeclared election spending, that may result in a dozen by-elections that she does not want nor need. She may have lost her slim majority in parliament by next year.
The public finance in the next two years leading to brexit is going to be even tighter than it is this year, inflation would have hit hard, voters will believe that she is not a good PM, labour leadership may have changed hand, the opposition may get stronger now that brexit is no longer a big issue.
Basically, if she didn't trigger the new GE, she may become a sitting duck.
I believe that you mean sooner rather than later!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: robdon

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
My belief is that she is showing a correct understanding of the situation, that by the time the election would have been called the Tory government will have doomed itself, better to go to the nation now.

The Media propaganda machine is working flat out to give the impression the Fan is spinning, if not spotlessly clean at least only carrying the usual level of ordure Tory rule presents to the whirling blades, and before any opposition has the chance to get it's act together.
This is a chance to divert public attention from the fact that there still isn't a plan, nor any effective strategy, not merely in place, but even under consideration, other than to gain such a big majority that the expected failure to obtain "The right Deal" can be ignored.

But beware the Lid Dems, Mrs May. be very afraid......
All she can promise is Blood toil, tears and sweat.
They promise a return to normality, and the noises coming from the EU parliament are indicating they would be happy to take Article 50 and use it as Toilet Paper.

And even if she succeeds in gaining a huge majority, there is still the looming prospect of inevitable public unrest ahead.
Vote Lib Dem, free us from this corner we have been painted into.
It is the only alternative that offers relief, rather than further suffering.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: oldgroaner

homemoz

Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2007
181
168
UK
Agreed, she had to look at going full term and taking a General Election then. If she though Brexit was a positive, she'd wait surely and enjoy the glory.

They've clearly looked at the time from now to 2020 and realised now is the best time.

The news keeps coming and its not going to get any better is it??

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15236404.Drinks_giant_Diageo_to_axe_more_than_100_jobs_because_of_Brexit__says_union/
Looks like many are thinking along similar lines.

https://www.ft.com/content/33e80122-25d0-11e7-8691-d5f7e0cd0a16

Donations, membership, etc etc, everything seems to be on the up.
Yes, I will also be voting LibDem. The thing that worries me is going into another coalition with the Tories. I really would not want to see that happen & hope that Tim Farron has learned from Clegg's mistakes.
 

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