Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

You should have listened to Keir Starmer - his new catchphrase is 'partnership not membership'.
Starmer made it clear that Labour's condition for supporting brexit is a deal with the EU.
Mrs May and her cohort of hard line brexiters may be driving the process but at the end, they can't risk the union with Scotland.

You really don't get it, do you? The government will not make a success of running the country and will resort to repression of the poor.
It will become more and more right wing, why can't you see that?
And the public will turn ugly


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[Woosh]

What's the problem with using your vote like everybody else to kick them out?
Why do you believe that brexit and tories are linked at the hip?

 

[oldgroaner]

What's the problem with using your vote like everybody else to kick them out?
Why do you believe that brexit and tories are linked at the hip?

Good god! What good will your vote do?
You really don't comprehend the severity of the situation do you?
Once we are out of the EU the only vote worth making is to get back in.

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[Woosh]

You really don't comprehend the severity of the situation do you?

You are pessimistic - you don't believe that people are intelligent enough to vote for their future.
I am not.

 

[oldgroaner]

You are pessimistic - you don't believe that people are intelligent enough to vote for their future.
I am not.

Well, they have already proved that without any shadow of doubt, haven't they?
They made a choice based on the wrong set of lies and promises.
No plan, No resources, just wishful thinking, it is all nothing more that a Bet.
And you regard that as an intelligent choice to make?
Sorry I do not agree.

 

[Woosh]

They made a choice based on the wrong set of lies and promises.

brexit has not happened yet, you don't know if we are going to do better or worse, that will of course depend on the deal with the EU.
If we do better, then the dividend will go toward the NHS.

 

[Danidl]

You are pessimistic - you don't believe that people are intelligent enough to vote for their future.
I am not.

... I think that people are intelligent, but need to be presented with facts, true facts . I have spent a career in teaching so it would have been a sham had I not so believed . They need to be allowed space and time to become educated and respect given to expert opinion. What we have seen of late, on both sides of the Atlantic, is that personalities and a cult of celebratity has drowned out rational debate.
Everybody is not entitled to an opinion. They are entitled to have access to the tools in order to inform themselves and become entitled to an opinion.

For every problem there is a simple solution, but it's usually the wrong, one.

 

[Woosh]

Everybody is not entitled to an opinion

huh?
why do you post?

 

[Danidl]

..

huh?
why do you post?

.. the answer is in the rest of my post....

 

[Woosh]

..

.. the answer is in the rest of my post....

I did not have an English education but a French one where it's important to respect the three principles since the 1789 revolution (Robespierre 1790). Equality is fundamental, regardless of one's education, religion, colour and social standing. I cannot conceive the idea that you have to be informed before you are allowed to hold an opinion.

 

[oldgroaner]

brexit has not happened yet, you don't know if we are going to do better or worse, that will of course depend on the deal with the EU.
If we do better, then the dividend will go toward the NHS.

Actually it doesn't depend on a deal with the EU it is far more fundamental than that, the government is incompetent and the opposition none existent.
We have no industrial base, merchant fleet. Navy, army or air force worthy of the name, and are up to our ears in debt.
We are uncompetitive on almost every field, and the public have voted for change.
Not change for the worse, of to make the rich richer.
If they are disappointed chaos will ensue.
And the brexit fans refuse to face reality.

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[Woosh]

We are uncompetitive on almost every field, and the public have voted for change.

and quite rightly so. They are fed up with continuing in the same direction, a slow decline economically and feeling less important politically.
oh, why do you think that the opposition can't be effective when brexit happens?

 

[oldgroaner]

and quite rightly so. They are fed up with continuing in the same direction, a slow decline economically and feeling less important politically.
oh, why do you think that the opposition can't be effective when brexit happens?

Quite simply because they will be in the same situation, and the slow decline wasn't due to the EU but inept UK government policies.
As to feeling less important politically we will have gone from a major European power to being a backwater and isolated offshore island living in the past on handouts


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[Danidl]

I did not have an English education but a French one where it's important to respect the three principles since the 1789 revolution (Robespierre 1790). Equality is fundamental, regardless of one's education, religion, colour and social standing. I cannot conceive the idea that you have to be informed before you are allowed to hold an opinion.

... Nor have I, mine is under the Irish system , more akin to the Scottish than the English system.
If one is not informed, one is ignorant. Ignorance is not a basis for making decisions. I fully concur with the concepts of equality as you have outlined. and am proud to consider myself a citizen, not a subject. As a citizen I have a responsibility to inform myself before voting, making decisions or otherwise . I may be wrong but it is an informed wrong.

 

[Woosh]

when you introduce the notion of ignorance, then your logic will lead to depriving or limiting people (not just citizens of a country) of their rights. That can't be good. There is a phrase in French "nul n’est censé ignorer la loi", that is the basis of the rule of law. The word nul implies equality, ignorant or not.

 

[flecc]

when you introduce the notion of ignorance, then your logic will lead to depriving or limiting people (not just citizens of a country) of their rights.

But surely ignorance is self-deprivation, including ignorance of one's rights?
.

 

[Woosh]

including ignorance of one's rights?

that's still not the reason to disrespect their rights or choice. There are plenty of supportive reasons why uninformed opinions must still be respected. Our parliamentarians did the right thing to pass the brexit law but now it's time to make sure that the deal the government will be negotiating is an inclusive one.

 

[Danidl]

when you introduce the notion of ignorance, then your logic will lead to depriving or limiting people (not just citizens of a country) of their rights. That can't be good. There is a phrase in French "nul n’est censé ignorer la loi", that is the basis of the rule of law. The word nul implies equality, ignorant or not.

.... My logic is not about deprivation, but empowerment . It is woolly thinking insisting that all opinions , are equally valid. My opinions on soccer and most assuredly cricket are I assure you useless, (Fleec may also believe that my options on hi-fi are equally useless). My opinions on some engineering matters otherwise.
There was a time not so long ago when voting was restricted to " men of property" or ratepayers on the grounds that only they had interests or as the phrase is now"skin in the game" .( This was in fact one of the causative factors in the early Northern Ireland troubles of 1969.) , Fortunately we are now in more enlightened times , but the consequence responsibility is that those who vote and who express opinions have a duty to inform themselves.

 

[anotherkiwi]

.... My logic is not about deprivation, but empowerment . It is woolly thinking insisting that all opinions , are equally valid. My opinions on soccer and most assuredly cricket are I assure you useless, (Fleec may also believe that my options on hi-fi are equally useless). My opinions on some engineering matters otherwise.
There was a time not so long ago when voting was restricted to " men of property" or ratepayers on the grounds that only they had interests or as the phrase is now"skin in the game" .( This was in fact one of the causative factors in the early Northern Ireland troubles of 1969.) , Fortunately we are now in more enlightened times , but the consequence responsibility is that those who vote and who express opinions have a duty to inform themselves.

And a right to be informed. Most likely falsebook isn't the right place to get correct information... The Twit spreads his lies on twitter... Back in the day teachers taught how to learn, how to understand information. That was back in the day...

 

[flecc]

There are plenty of supportive reasons why uninformed opinions must still be respected.

I don't see why. How can I, for example, respect the Jehovah's Witness who tells me the earth was created 6000 years ago and that all evidence of dinosaurs is faked by scientists? Freedom of speech means they are not denied the expression of that ignorant opinion, but I reserve my right to disrespect it.

I repeat, I'm not depriving them of them of anything, they deprive themselves.
.