Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

So buying financially repossessed cars is a crime against underpriviliged Greeks? I suppose throwing them in sea would be a better idea? Then they are even more in debt.
You really are a fool sometimes OG. You hold EU up as a shining example then when one is given of the system actually helping you mock it.
And BTW cant remember exact figures but I believe 10% of all cars have at sometime been involved in finacial problems. Its a good chance you own one.

On the USA
Europhiles now holding an aggressive, divisive, poverty laden, crime ridden, hypocritical culture as an ideal for eu to strive for.
Have you folk been to Detroit ? The good old USA is in a worse mess than us.

Questions
OG...What system would you introduce for folk who default on payments but carry on driving around in £50k cars ?

Flecc
Would you invest your pension pot in Greece ?
( and don't waffle like last time, its yes or no !)

Lets see now, the situation of repossessed cars is interesting isn't it? on the one hand you are referring to a situation in this country where the car has been bought on credit and repossessed, and on the other where the car was bought on a system of Credit you call wrong, and you bought it when the owner flogged it off to avoid paying tax
The answer is simple in both cases
One involves you purchasing a car that has been involved in a Tax avoidance scam, which implicates you in it,whether you like it or not, the other a normal transaction.

Tell me what "underprivileged Greek could ever afford a Porsche or BMW or Audi even at knock down prices? come off it!
The other UK situation is a normal failure of a credit agreement.
There is no comparison of the two.

Yet you rant and rave about the way the Greeks conduct their affairs, then pounce on the bargains this corrupt system produces, the Greek public loses through the tax swindle and you don't care do you, oh no, you are happy to be a party of the deal aren't you?
Hypocritical hardly describes the act of complaining about a system then profiting from it!

On the other hand where someone in this country can't keep up the payments, they are the losers but not the UK public.
And you refuse to see the difference?

No wonder you are looking forward to Brexit!
people like you are circling like vultures to pounce on any unfortunate that loses their jobs and has to sell up.
By the way I bought the cars I have had new since retiring as you never know which shady dealer hasn't ripped someone off with second hand ones, do you?
This is interesting
"
Europhiles now holding an aggressive, divisive, poverty laden, crime ridden, hypocritical culture as an ideal for eu to strive for.
Have you folk been to Detroit ? The good old USA is in a worse mess than us."
So your remedy would be for the Seven Colonies to stage Amerexit?
Ha Ha Ha!
And you have completely missed the point that there as here it isn't the notion of a Federal state that is the problem, but greedy money mad clowns who damage their own country in the pursuit of profit, but then, that 's OK with you as you can profit from that, can't you?
The problem in this world is that there are far too many with your me first, second and last attitude that don't are really about the damage they do to everyone else, so long as the money keeps rolling in to them personally.

 

[oldgroaner]

Your imaginary friend will help out OG..

BTW you didn't answer question or withdraw insult !

I most certainly did answer the question, and
What insult would that be?

 

[Zlatan]

I most certainly did answer the question, and
What insult would that be?

No you did not at all. What did you want to happen to the Porsches, Mercs and Audis bought on credit by Greeks after they could not pay instalments. The tax had nothing at all to do with it. Greeks took out credit in their droves, later realised payments could not be met ( as country slid into recession / realised cars were devaluing faster than expected )and defaulted..
What did you want to happen at this stage...cars be left with owners and credit firms go bust...?? Cars thrown in sea so everybody loses.?
Cars were repossed, credit firms had auctions to reclaim some lost revenue..???/
Come on give an alternative... You cant.

Your insult was I took advantage of Greeks, many of whom bought the cars and never made a single payment. I took advantage of the credit firms who owned the cars.They took a risk and lost. The Greeks lost nothing. They had free expensive cars for a few months.

The problems actually started when many Greeks realised the cars would be worth less than payments owing, so they stopped paying and thought of lost deposits and earlier instalments as rental payments. It made better financial sense for them to stop paying...Ferries were full of expensive ( German) cars westward bound.
Come on give an alternative to cars being auctioned abroad!
Or perhaps you think folk sit at car auctions thinking don't bid on this one its offending a Greek somewhere. You really are an ******* at times OG.

 

[oldtom]

As long as we also have a 'punch the commie' one.

You must live in a bubble Mike. In your little fantasy world, it seems if you are to be believed, that there are no fascists and no racists in the UK - those descriptions only fit for foreign people.

Curiously, you seem to confuse socialism with communism so you clearly lack the education and knowledge to distinguish between the two, conveniently ignoring the fact that the British Communist Party competed against the Labour party in many constituencies when they had some support in parts of the country.

Now, I don't mind you displaying your juvenile ignorance of the political spectrum here in the UK, particularly as you accomplish that so professionally, but what have 'commies' ever done to you....or to anyone else in this country? If I knew anyone who subscribed to that view or actually admitted to membership of that party, I'd really like to know the Communist Party view on this 'Brexit' shambles so I'd ask the question. Perhaps you have actually done that?

As an aside, do you have any opinion on brainwashing? More particularly, do you know how successful it is and can you say if it is reversible? If you don't know, then I recommend that you study the topic as it is hugely enlightening and the story is actually very scary when one learns of how the techniques have been developed. Then, how and where those techniques have been implemented, by whom and for what purpose.

Meanwhile, I shall research the Communist Party of Great Britain and see if it still exists and if their members have a view on the EU and the UK secession from that group.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

No you did not at all. What did you want to happen to the Porsches, Mercs and Audis bought on credit by Greeks after they could not pay instalments. The tax had nothing at all to do with it. Greeks took out credit in their droves, later realised payments could not be met ( as country slid into recession) and defaulted..
What did you want to happen at this stage...cars be left with owners and credit firms go bust...?? Cars thrown in sea so everybody loses.?
Cars were repossed, credit firms had auctions to reclaim some lost revenue..???/
Come on give an alternative... You cant.

Firstly the cars were sold off because that way the owners could retain some of the value before they were confiscated by the Government, weren't they?
And even after Tax retain some of the value, and you know that as well as I do.

Tell me why should I give you an alternative to a problem in Greece? perhaps the Greek Government has this covered.
But I shall respond by making a suggestion that you can profit from

"Greece is preparing a new scheme that it hopes will stop citizens from avoiding tax, by raffling off luxury cars that have been repossessed during the economic crisis.

The former pride and joys of wealthy tax-dodgers will be given away, via a prize draw, to struggling citizens.

Greek newspapers reported that high-end luxury cars including Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, Jaguars and Mercedes will be given away this summer to those who submit their tax receipts and invoices.
http://cars.aol.co.uk/2014/04/23/greek-government-to-raffle-off-luxury-cars-to-taxpayers/

So here is my suggestion
Why don't you make an offer to the Greek Government to sell off the cars on their behalf and share the profit?
There you are a positive suggestion you can follow up!
Don't say I never do you any favours!

 

[mike killay]

View attachment 17710

You must live in a bubble Mike. In your little fantasy world, it seems if you are to be believed, that there are no fascists and no racists in the UK - those descriptions only fit for foreign people.

Curiously, you seem to confuse socialism with communism so you clearly lack the education and knowledge to distinguish between the two, conveniently ignoring the fact that the British Communist Party competed against the Labour party in many constituencies when they had some support in parts of the country.

Now, I don't mind you displaying your juvenile ignorance of the political spectrum here in the UK, particularly as you accomplish that so professionally, but what have 'commies' ever done to you....or to anyone else in this country? If I knew anyone who subscribed to that view or actually admitted to membership of that party, I'd really like to know the Communist Party view on this 'Brexit' shambles so I'd ask the question. Perhaps you have actually done that?

As an aside, do you have any opinion on brainwashing? More particularly, do you know how successful it is and can you say if it is reversible? If you don't know, then I recommend that you study the topic as it is hugely enlightening and the story is actually very scary when one learns of how the techniques have been developed. Then, how and where those techniques have been implemented, by whom and for what purpose.

Meanwhile, I shall research the Communist Party of Great Britain and see if it still exists and if their members have a view on the EU and the UK secession from that group.

Tom
View attachment 17709

Tom,
You really lose the argument when you get on your high horse and try to belittle me,
Ad hominem attack!
For your information, yes I did know an old communist who actually attended the Cable Street debacle,
Oddly, I later met a policeman who was also there and heard both sides.
Stop your schoolmaster like lecturing style and learn to debate.
You asked for a punch the Nazi glyph, you know that you only want it to insult conservatives who are most definitely not Nazis.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Chatting to one of my colleagues in California,we both realised that Trump and Brexit have the same roots. These are borne out of large numbers of people who are just not noticed and globalisation has left them behind,in comparison to those who are in a position to embrace it.
The tick on the vote was their 5 seconds of power that has forced Trump/Brexit on all of us. I wonder over the next few months whether the same people in European elections will similarly let their parliaments know how unhappy they are,by way of the ballot box.
Perhaps this is a modern day revolution in the western world.
What concerns me is that these people won't be satisfied unless jobs/lifestyles are upgraded to the level of the successful people in our societies.
It's easy to see the battle lines being drawn....Leavers(the north)v Remoaners,Trump (rust belt)v the Establishment,Left v Right in Europe....it's a good old fashioned haves/have not revolution,hope it's a bloodless one.
KudosDave

 

[Zlatan]

OG
You obviously know nothing about situation as it happened, your knowledge of it is all blatant recent googling.

And yes the government may have offererd bribery to get tax returns...again a red herring. Simple fact is German car suppliers saw profit, credit firms ( owned by same) saw profit. Greeks saw cheap expensive cars...but it failed. Car firms lost money, credit firms lost money, the Greeks lost ownership of prestige cars.

You didn't offer ant realistic solution...as usual.

Your criticism should be aimed at greedy credit brokers/ car firms ( in each case in Greece German) offering credit to folk unable to meet payments..it was another example of toxic debt but this time around cars not real estate...
I suppose you also think anybody buying cheap property in Spain,France, Florida,Portugal etc etc are also immoral...
There are 6 bed villas around Malaga adverised at £100k...once changed hands for £500k...would you pay the latter to feel moral. I doubt it.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG
You obviously know nothing about situation as it happened, your knowledge of it is all blatant recent googling.

And yes the government may have offererd bribery to get tax returns...again a red herring. Simple fact is German car suppliers saw profit, credit firms ( owned by same) saw profit. Greeks saw cheap expensive cars...but it failed. Car firms lost money, credit firms lost money, the Greeks lost ownership of prestige cars.

You didn't offer ant realistic solution...as usual.

Really? you are missing an opportunity there, and as usual making all the wrong assumptions about me.

 

[oldgroaner]

You asked for a punch the Nazi glyph, you know that you only want it to insult conservatives who are most definitely not Nazis.

Oh dear you really need to read a little history if you think that is true!
Behold Lord Rothermere

(He's the one without the moustache)
ndeed, he met and corresponded with Hitler, even congratulating him on his annexation of Czechoslovakia.
so we can be under no illusion that Rothermere the First was a supporter of the Nazis. And he had the power to say so through his Mail ownership
and he wasn't the only Conservative to do so, try a Google search.
Do you really think this new lot are any different, and if you do, why?
Many of the current Daily Mail headlines could have been lifted straight out of the late 1930's

 

[flecc]

I like the different cultures across Europe and the diversity of the people. The ideology of the EU to turn European countries it into a bland grey uniform mass isn't what I want t see.

Of course Europe wouldn't turn into a bland, grey, uniform mass, and our own United Kingdom is the proof:

Do you really think the Scots, the Yorkshire people, the Cornish, the Welsh, the Norfolk people etc have become a bland uniform grey mass!

Of course not, they speak different versions of our language, they eat their own unique foods and have their own distinctive attitudes, all of which they retain with fierce pride.

Each nation state within a united Europe would follow their own path, completely distinctive in every aspect of their characters, just as each US state is so distinctive.
.

 

[tillson]

Oh dear you really need to read a little history if you think that is true!
Behold Lord Rothermere

(He's the one without the moustache)
ndeed, he met and corresponded with Hitler, even congratulating him on his annexation of Czechoslovakia.
so we can be under no illusion that Rothermere the First was a supporter of the Nazis. And he had the power to say so through his Mail ownership
and he wasn't the only Conservative to do so, try a Google search.
Do you really think this new lot are any different, and if you do, why?
Many of the current Daily Mail headlines could have been lifted straight out of the late 1930's

OG, are you suggesting that what we are seeing through BREXIT and today's Tory party support for BREXIT is Nazism? Really?

I am currently in Poland and have been there for just over a week. I visited Oświęcim (Auschwitz-Birkenau) on Thursday and spend the day there. Although I have read much about what took place at these two camps, to see the actual place, the human remains, hair and the personal effects of the victims reinforces what Nazism was / is all about. I wasn't shocked or upset by what I saw there, but perhaps more aware of the evil of the perpetrators.

Yours and old tom's liberal use of the term fascism and branding people Nazis really does an injustice to the people who died in these camps at the hands of true Nazis. It somehow desecrates their memory and dilutes the seriousness of what took place. To compare a BREXIT voter to a Nazi trivialises true Nazi history and trivialises the manner in which millions of people were murdered.

I know the left seem to have a problem with Jews, but you really should stop splashing around all of this Nazi nonsense, it's not right.

 

[oldtom]

Tom,

For your information, yes I did know an old communist who actually attended the Cable Street debacle,
Oddly, I later met a policeman who was also there and heard both sides.

Mike, there was a degree of irony in my post that seems to have been lost on you but that's neither here nor there and doesn't really surprise me.

Your political opinions on British communism extend to two conversations it seems from what you report and that, therefore, is sufficient for you to make an informed judgement on the merits and demerits of communism. Fascinating!

You then accuse me of getting on my high horse in order to belittle you. I really don't think so Mike; you do a damned fine job of that all by yourself with your blind, tory bigotry and support for Nazi-inspired politicians who fool you with their faux patriotism delivered in easy to digest soundbites.

Just so you are perfectly clear, I am not communist, Stalinist, Trotskyist or any other Soviet-inspired appendage you might wish to utilise. I most certainly declare that I am a British patriot and I believe in the value and equality of people, regardless of race, creed or colour. Because of my beliefs, the only political environment which represents me is that encompassed by the British Labour Party.

Any party which puts wealth creation and profit at the top of their agenda before the needs of the poorest and most helpless in this world is offensive to me and the current dictatorial administration is arguably the worst collection of divisive policymakers in modern British history.

Tom

 

[tillson]

Just so you are perfectly clear, I am not communist, Stalinist, Trotskyist or any other Soviet-inspired appendage you might wish to utilise. I most certainly declare that I am a British patriot and I believe in the value and equality of people, regardless of race, creed or colour. Because of my beliefs, the only political environment which represents me is that encompassed by the British Labour Party.


Tom

I fully support all of what you say here, but do you really think that the Ed Balls, Emily Thornbury, Dianne Abbott and Tony Blair types really represent this?

There is currently no one in British politics who represents these groups.

 

[flecc]

To compare a BREXIT voter to a Nazi trivialises true Nazi history and trivialises the manner in which millions of people were murdered.

Despite their namesake of 2000 years ago clearly being a communist, the Christian church is undoubtedly right wing, and said to have been responsible for some 12 million deaths. So I suppose by the same token Christians could be called Nazis.

Critically calling someone right wing is inadequate, considering the evils that even so-called moderate right wingers perpetrate, so perhaps some in-between terms are needed.

A leaf out of Tony Blair's book could give us New Nazi, or perhaps the Italian diminutive could be appended, as in Nazini.

Any other suggestions?
.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG, are you suggesting that what we are seeing through BREXIT and today's Tory party support for BREXIT is Nazism? Really?

I am currently in Poland and have been there for just over a week. I visited Oświęcim (Auschwitz-Birkenau) on Thursday and spend the day there. Although I have read much about what took place at these two camps, to see the actual place, the human remains, hair and the personal effects of the victims reinforces what Nazism was / is all about. I wasn't shocked or upset by what I saw there, but perhaps more aware of the evil of the perpetrators.

Yours and old tom's liberal use of the term fascism and branding people Nazis really does an injustice to the people who died in these camps at the hands of true Nazis. It somehow desecrates their memory and dilutes the seriousness of what took place. To compare a BREXIT voter to a Nazi trivialises true Nazi history and trivialises the manner in which millions of people were murdered.

I know the left seem to have a problem with Jews, but you really should stop splashing around all of this Nazi nonsense, it's not right.

Hang on a minute tillson, how do you manage to bend the truth to so readily and often?
"To compare a BREXIT voter to a Nazi"
When and where did I do this?
Don't you know the difference between a Brexit Voter and a Tory Politician?
You could get a job as a reporter for one of the Murdoch papers if your understanding of what is being said is as awry as that!
However
"are you suggesting that what we are seeing through BREXIT and today's Tory party support for BREXIT is Nazism? Really?"

Doesn't really fit with all my previous statements of the belief that the Brexit voters have been lied to and mislead does it?

And if fact although I haven't actually labelled the ENTIRE Tory party as Nazis, I have actually identified past members that provably were, and you can't deny it, and also in past posts identified those who wanted to surrender to Hitler.

Remember if Churchill hadn't had the Labour party supporting him to head that idea of, we would be speaking German now.
Lets look at what fascism is

Fascism
Fascism is a form of government which is a type of one-party dictatorship. Fascists are against liberal democracy. They work for a totalitarian one-party state.

And now this has been improved on to the point where ONE WOMAN determines the fate of the Nation and in fact usurps even the one party state!
So perhaps fascism is incorrect and Dictatorship more appropriate?

You have to wonder if the greater mass of Brexit voters realise the attempt they made to "Take back control" of the Government would actually have focused all power into the hands of a single individual with rigid fixed right wing ideas.

Here's a question for you, where on the European Continent during the last century did a disenchanted population vote in an election and end up with the same result of an all powerful leader and begin a disaster for mankind?

 

[oldtom]

Yours and old tom's liberal use of the term fascism and branding people Nazis really does an injustice to the people who died in these camps at the hands of true Nazis.

That post ranks as the worst I have seen in this thread.

The reason I say that is that you have singularly failed to identify, (or completely ignored), the warning signals apparent to anyone with a sense of history. Amongst those is the particular use of language redolent of 1930s Germany, with the denunciation of all opposing opinion causing it to be regarded as treasonous; calls for people to perform their patriotic duty, etc.

You appear to be in complete denial that the current crop of far-right politicians are in any way akin to their 1930s predecessors both here and in Germany - as if because they haven't yet begun torturing and exterminating particular groups of people that that marks them as different. The racism inherent in their raison d'être has been plain for all the world to see, in the UK, in the USA and in every country where right-wing extremists have risen to prominence in recent times.

Will the penny only drop with you when we see another holocaust to match that of the mid-twentieth century.....or does that notion seem ridiculous to you? You, like some of the others of your ilk, seem prepared to ignore all the warning signals and provide the lunatic right-wing with the support they crave - the oxygen required for them to grow and prosper. You seem oblivious to the reality that these people care not a jot for you or anyone else and you continue to harbour the notion that once in positions of power, these monsters will sort the whole political and socio-economic ills of the UK.

Such beliefs are the stuff of fantasy and the kind of outpourings delivered by the proponents of 'Brexit' both before and after the referendum have been demonstrated to be complete and utter lies, even admitted latterly by those who made the claims.

Nonetheless, you and others like you blindly blunder on in your perverted belief that the future looks great for this country, placing your trust in liars and charlatans. There is a complete lack of understanding that the very same people driving the 'Brexit' programme and who will be leading this country following any deal with the EU are incapable of sorting any of the major problems afflicting the country now. For some reason beyond the comprehension of intelligent people, you believe that those far-right extremists will suddenly change their modus operandi and create a fairer society for all our people.

Frankly, your comparison between what you consider to be 'true Nazis' and those of today demonstrates your complete lack of understanding of the meaning of fascism but I can't say I'm surprised as you have never been able to provide any economic, military or strategic case for 'Brexit', only displaying a hatred for those people seeking to enter the UK as immigrants or as refugees.

People like you bring another major international war closer than at any time since 1963.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

OG, are you suggesting that what we are seeing through BREXIT and today's Tory party support for BREXIT is Nazism? Really?

I am currently in Poland and have been there for just over a week. I visited Oświęcim (Auschwitz-Birkenau) on Thursday and spend the day there. Although I have read much about what took place at these two camps, to see the actual place, the human remains, hair and the personal effects of the victims reinforces what Nazism was / is all about. I wasn't shocked or upset by what I saw there, but perhaps more aware of the evil of the perpetrators.

Yours and old tom's liberal use of the term fascism and branding people Nazis really does an injustice to the people who died in these camps at the hands of true Nazis. It somehow desecrates their memory and dilutes the seriousness of what took place. To compare a BREXIT voter to a Nazi trivialises true Nazi history and trivialises the manner in which millions of people were murdered.

I know the left seem to have a problem with Jews, but you really should stop splashing around all of this Nazi nonsense, it's not right.

Hang on a minute tillson, how do you manage to bend the truth to so readily and often?
"To compare a BREXIT voter to a Nazi"
When and where did I do this?
Don't you know the difference between a Brexit Voter and a Tory Politician?
You could get a job as a reporter for one of the Murdoch papers if your understanding of what is being said is as awry as that!
However
"are you suggesting that what we are seeing through BREXIT and today's Tory party support for BREXIT is Nazism? Really?"

Doesn't really fit with all my previous statements of the belief that the Brexit voters have been lied to and mislead does it?

And if fact although I haven't actually labelled the ENTIRE Tory party as Nazis, I have actually identified past members that provably were, and you can't deny it, and also in past posts identified those who wanted to surrender to Hitler.

Remember if Churchill hadn't had the Labour party supporting him to head that idea of, we would be speaking German now.
Lets look at what fascism is

Fascism
Fascism is a form of government which is a type of one-party dictatorship. Fascists are against liberal democracy. They work for a totalitarian one-party state.

And now this has been improved on to the point where ONE WOMAN determines the fate of the Nation and in fact usurps even the one party state!
So perhaps fascism is incorrect and Dictatorship more appropriate?

You have to wonder if the greater mass of Brexit voters realise the attempt they made to "Take back control" of the Government would actually have focused all power into the hands of a single individual with rigid fixed right wing ideas.

Here's a question for you, where on the European Continent during the last century did a disenchanted population vote in an election and end up with the same result of an all powerful leader

I fully support all of what you say here, but do you really think that the Ed Balls, Emily Thornbury, Dianne Abbott and Tony Blair types really represent this?

There is currently no one in British politics who represents these groups.

and begin a disaster for mankind?

 

[boyabouttown]

What isn't obvious is why you trust the very people who got you into this situation to suddenly change their ways and work for, instead of against you?
This slow decline was not caused by the EU, but by Government policies, and now they are free to take you to the cleaners aren't they?
What exactly are you expecting them to do for your benefit?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

i don't trust any politicians but i have to vote, be it political parties or in the referendum, as to not do would make me feel unable to have an opinion on these matters. as you say 'the very people who got me into this situation' may well have been the conservatives, although things still continued to decline whichever party was in power. it might not be the eu's fault but different governments here have not improved the situation so i decided that maybe it might improve if we are out of the eu. it gives me hope for the future which i did not have before, maybe things will get worse, i don't know. blame us idiots if it does go tits up but if the political parties had listened to people over the years maybe it wouldn't have come to this.

 

[Zlatan]

Nobody can really aargue against Tom's, Fleccs and Corbyn's idealism. ( OG is a different matter) But unfortunately the world is not ideal, its a hard uncompromising place full of conflict. Corbyn,s ideals one day when the entire human race has grown up will be met but not in our time or our grandkids either.
Tom also ruins both what are good warnings from history and a caring viewpoint by being totally devoid of empathy for opposing views...With all respect Tom if you just stop judging and stuck to your ideals without insulting you,d be taken far more seriously...Sorry but you start to sound bigoted. (read your reply to Tilson ( and mike)after he has agreed with much of what you say)
You do yourself a disservice even when your points are valid. ( no right minded person could argue against many of your ideals)

You and I actually fundamentally agree on so much we differ on how to achieve those goals.
OG just loves arguing, googling, cut and pasting and annoying me. He,s pretty good at all 4...or is it 5...by his own admission he is quite mad..and often angry...