Brexit, for once some facts.

the EU should drop the idea that a deal with the UK should leave the UK worse off than current membership.
That's an idiotic ideology.
It should do the exact opposite, find the best deal for both sides. Let the UK continue to pay in and participate in as many programs as possible.
wow, I'm shocked by this.

So you really think a club, will give a leaving member a better deal (even if yes it is better for the club)... because I've run clubs before, and even on a small scale that would be suicide for the club. Everyone would leave and therefore the club would be over. So even if leaving makes the EU better off, they can't give us a better or even the same deal we currently have. It would end the EU.
 

oldgroaner

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don't think so. Only 12 (including UK) of the 28 are net contributors. 11 at most might want to join the UK as associate EU members if the EU want to reform that way. The Netherlands and France are the two most obvious:

Net contributors:



I don't know how many of the posters here follow the French elections. Fallon, the republican candidate, a bit more right wing than Mrs May, may be forced to pull out if payments to his wife comes under scrutiny by the French judiciaire. That will practically make Le Pen favourite to be the next French President.
Slight drawback to your scheme, getting agreement to it inside the EU
No Chance, none whatever.
 
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oldgroaner

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wow, I'm shocked by this.

So you really think a club, will give a leaving member a better deal (even if yes it is better for the club)... because I've run clubs before, and even on a small scale that would be suicide for the club. Everyone would leave and therefore the club would be over. So even if leaving makes the EU better off, they can't give us a better or even the same deal we currently have. It would end the EU.
As I pointed out, it's an utterly improbable outcome, they had chanced their arm as far as they could with the deal we already had.
 
There is only one good deal that "protects the national interest"
And we are about to throw it away.
So it really doesn't matter what deal they come up with, does it?
Consider this: even under the existing circumstances
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/25/poverty-in-the-uk-jeopardising-childrens-health-warns-landmark-report
And this 13.5 million in poverty
https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/monitoring-poverty-and-social-exclusion-2016?gclid=Cj0KEQiAiMHEBRC034nx2ImB1J0BEiQA-r7ctuA7sMrxJMYHY3gOeC3Gx2bzbPvDd7THzt1vb7V0ShMaAnCS8P8HAQ

Explain in simple terms how entering into a deal that NO ONE, repeat NO ONE can say with any certainty whatever will vastly improve the economy.
Which is what the Brexit voters Voted for remember, to get rid of these injustices, is going to address the needs of the people?

How is it going to create new jobs, and why would we need them when we are told that there is already full employment?
Where are the nurses going to come from when recruitment has fallen to ONE TENTH since the Brexit vote?

There isn't a snowflake in Hell's chance of Brexit achieving other than at best a slight improvement in the economy when the public are expecting miracles is there?

Even in the EU we are in a dangerous decline, and now we are about to
"Dance with the Devil in the Pale Moonlight" as the Joker would say.

Let the dance begin, but it will cause mayhem sooner or later, because no one has the guts to say
"Not in my name!"
I agree. From what I've heard its all about timing. Currenlty MPs / Lords don't feel they have enough ammunition to go against the "will of the people". Thats why all the MPs are getting up and saying they think its a bad idea, but they will vote with the governement... they all expect / hope things will change, that the will of the public will change, and they will have another vote at some point in the 2 years where they can pull the plug on this crazy idea.
 

Woosh

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wow, I'm shocked by this.

So you really think a club, will give a leaving member a better deal (even if yes it is better for the club)... because I've run clubs before, and even on a small scale that would be suicide for the club. Everyone would leave and therefore the club would be over. So even if leaving makes the EU better off, they can't give us a better or even the same deal we currently have. It would end the EU.
Guys, you don't want to take the viewpoints of people like Mr Trump seriously.
I repost the OECD currency valuation chart again - countries can go to war over this.




If the Euro was re-valued by 25%, my bike business will boom. KD will agree with me on this.

There are also plenty of people who do not want to see the EU flag fly over their public buildings.
 

Kudoscycles

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After Ken Clarkes 'Alice in Wonderland' speech yesterday,against triggering Article 50,most of parliament,both sides of the house stood up and cheered.
Yet when they come to vote today they will be sheep, whipped into a leave decision by their masters.....is that democracy?
KudosDave
 
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Kudoscycles

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Guys, you don't want to take the viewpoints of people like Mr Trump seriously.
I repost the OECD currency valuation chart again - countries can go to war over this.




If the Euro was re-valued by 25%, my bike business will boom. KD will agree with me on this.

There are also plenty of people who do not want to see the EU flag fly over their public buildings.
Wonder how the Chinese RMB sits on that graph?
KudosDave
 
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Woosh

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After Ken Clarkes 'Alice in Wonderland' speech yesterday,against triggering Article 50,most of parliament,both sides of the house stood up and cheered.
Yet when they come to vote today they will be sheep, whipped into a leave decision by their masters.....is that democracy?
KudosDave
Yes. That's one of the natural consequences of long term democracy.
You can't get brexiters to change their mind unless you let them try.

Wonder how the Chinese RMB sits on that graph?
KudosDave
Off the scales. I reckon -200%?
He has already gunned for China.
 
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oldgroaner

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Yes. That's one of the natural consequences of long term democracy.
You can't get brexiters to change their mind unless you let them try.
My sentiments exactly, alas the comparison that springs to mind is giving a child a live hand grenade to play with, with or without the pin
 
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Woosh

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My sentiments exactly, alas the comparison that springs to mind is giving a child a live hand grenade to play with, with or without the pin
OG, you write off brexit's economic prospects too easily.
If brexiters are happy to pay for the resulting inflation then why not let them enjoy their victory?
 

oldgroaner

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Off the scales. I reckon -200%?
He has already gunned for China.
What an ingenious idea! attack the very place that has most of Americas companies and debt in it's hands.

To get attention to yourself that is Masterly, but utterly Stupid too.
Trump: the man who escaped being bankrupt five times,and on the sixth occasion managed to hit the big time with his own country.

Bankruptcy for America or war?
More likely removal from office, with any luck.
 
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oldgroaner

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OG, you write off brexit's economic prospects too easily.
If brexiters are happy to pay for the resulting inflation then why not let them enjoy their victory?
No actually if you recall I didn't write off the economic prospects, I pointed out that all that could be hoped for at best as a slight improvement (or none)
that would be hopelessly inadequate to satisfy the hope for change among the public that they are expecting.

It is the Social consequences not the economic ones that will doom Brexit either in the short or long term.

And the other "bit" you missed, I want Article 50 to go ahead, knowing they won't "enjoy" the result, but may profit from the lesson of reality.
 
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tillson

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don't think so. Only 12 (including UK) of the 28 are net contributors. 11 at most might want to join the UK as associate EU members if the EU want to reform that way. The Netherlands and France are the two most obvious:

Net contributors:



I don't know how many of the posters here follow the French elections. Fallon, the republican candidate, a bit more right wing than Mrs May, may be forced to pull out if payments to his wife comes under scrutiny by the French judiciaire. That will practically make Le Pen favourite to be the next French President. Le Pen wants to keep the Euro for the moment but wants to follow brexit.
We are big contributors to the EU and the second largest economy. I don't know how OG can dismiss the UK as having no negotiating position.

I expect there to be plenty of room for negotiation after A50 is triggered, but I do not expect us be able to cherry pick all of favourable bits. The net result, I think, will be better in the long term for the UK.
 

Woosh

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Bankruptcy for America or war?
More likely removal from office, with any luck.
somebody has to shake up the current world economics.
As I said before, Mr Trump's ideas are ways OTT, but he provokes debates and participation.
For too long, we have been fed sleeping pills by the Thatcherites and Blairites.
 

tillson

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After Ken Clarkes 'Alice in Wonderland' speech yesterday,against triggering Article 50,most of parliament,both sides of the house stood up and cheered.
Yet when they come to vote today they will be sheep, whipped into a leave decision by their masters.....is that democracy?
KudosDave
They are keeping their powder dry. It's too early to mount an offensive. If negotiations start to look unfavourable for the UK, the MPs who favour remain will have something tangible, instead of assumptions and predictions, to use against the government. It's a tactical game and I understand what they are doing.
 

oldgroaner

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From Reuters this morning
LONDON Britain's economy now looks set to slow only slightly in 2017 after its resilient response to last year's Brexit vote, but growth is still likely to be a lot weaker than if the country had decided to stay in the European Union, a think tank said.

So how is that going to address the £1.7+ Trillion deficit and all the social problems people are expecting to be solved?
instead of for instance £350 millions for the NHS there have been cuts.

Rocky weather for the Ship of State ahead!
 
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