Brexit, for once some facts.

[anotherkiwi]

The Brexit thread should be about the UK getting out of something it should never have been in, I agree with the General de Gaule on that point, you never belonged in the first place. I think that if there was a vote across the EU asking "Do we want the UK in the EU?" the No vote would win and we could get on with making the EU better and stronger.

On this thread we have people dreaming the whole EU is destined to tumble into ruin. This weekend there were two votes:

Austria refused to elect a euro sceptic in an election that was about immigration and EU related.

Italy had a referendum that was about modifying its constitution to make the country easier to govern, there was absolutely no link to anything EU related in the question asked and in the no vote that won. No vote won because of fears of giving the prime minister the powers of another Mussolini.

The thread is about facts and those are the facts du jour...

 

[oldgroaner]

loosen up there and enjoy this
"
THE UK can get free access to the single market without any concessions on freedom of movement, according to a man with no idea what ‘negotiating’ means.

Warehouse operative Nathan Muir believes that if British representatives tell the EU that they mean business and refuse to back down they will get every single thing they want without surrendering anything.


He continued: “It’s all about attitude. If we walk in saying ‘I’ll trade this for this,’ or ‘We may agree some compromises’ they’ll make mincemeat out of us.

“But go in there British and proud, tell them ‘Full access to the single market, no immigration, and we keep all our subsidies or I’m out that door’ and they’ll cave like the continental cowards they are.

“Though obviously we do need to meet in the middle on freedom of movement. They can’t come here but I still go wherever I want. That seems fair.”

Friend Stephen Malley said: “I remember when Nathan went to negotiate himself a pay rise. They cut his hours and moved him to nights.”

Sorted! as the intelligentsia might say

 

[Woosh]

The Brexit thread should be about the UK getting out of something it should never have been in, I agree with the General de Gaule on that point, you never belonged in the first place. I think that if there was a vote across the EU asking "Do we want the UK in the EU?" the No vote would win and we could get on with making the EU better and stronger.

We should belong with EFTA.

 

[mike killay]

 

[Zlatan]

On the lightening mood..
How do you tell what sex an ant is ?
Drop it in water and if it sinks its a girl.!
My 8 year old grandaighter
told me this an burst out laughing at this stage...
I asked my daughter why its so funny ?

Answer
" Boyants float"

Mmm.

 

[oldtom]

I'm probably quite wrong here but has anyone else ever considered that our recently-joined forum troll, 'Zlatan' may be the alter-ego of an existing forum member?

The profile doesn't give much away, (of course), but his choice of position in a discussion that he, if it is in fact a he, found unpalatable at an early stage seems quite strange:

I know I,m a newbie on here and wont be staying long( thanks to those that helped on dvp thread) but really do think this thread, its attitude, atmosphere it creates, arguments and insults it leads to are undermining any positive attitudes towards ebikes.

The fact that he has decided to not only hang around but to post prolifically, not so much on the subject but rather, personal attacks on the 'remain' proponents whenever his ludicrous comments are challenged causes me to wonder about his authenticity.

As I said, I may be quite wrong but 'Zlatan from France' doesn't quite fit with someone so argumentative, not even owning an EAPC, who joined an electric bike forum seeking information about sub-aqua scooter propulsion.

Oh, just call me cynical!

Tom

 

[Zlatan]

Zlatan from France ?? I,m not French. Never mentioned France!
I got interested in the political discussion and amazed how argumentative and opinionated some posters were..especially you Tom.
I stuck around to see how offensive you were, so its entirely your fault I stayed.
Interestingly my question on bike forum attracted some interest and some help.( dv8eh thanks) but its long faded.
But this one runs and runs..!!! On a bike forum !
But yep right again..I,m really Theresa May. OG thought I was Nigel Farage !
But actually what difference does it make, we should be judged by what we say not who we are, but plainly Tom cant do that.

Mike
Couldn't resist bad spelling icon..good post.Cant agree with it all but it will raise blood pressure of a couple of posters..Two sides to every argument.

 

[oldgroaner]

On the lightening mood..
How do you tell what sex an ant is ?
Drop it in water and if it sinks its a girl.!
My 8 year old grandaighter
told me this an burst out laughing at this stage...
I asked my daughter why its so funny ?

Answer
" Boyants float"

Mmm.

I love it![emoji1]

I would be in the theoretical situation where a Labour Party existed if you know what I mean.

We could try "Pandemonium" ... oh too late.....

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[anotherkiwi]

Location: France seems pretty clear to me

 

[Zlatan]

Thanks OG.

 

[oldtom]

Mike, that is a very poor articulation of facts and lies, mixed with assumptions and wishes.

It ignores every obstacle that the 'Brexit' camp has faced since the referendum, all things they gave little or no thought to before the event. Misinterpreting the legal position of a referendum while trivialising the authority of parliament plus the accusations about biased judges and so on does not constitute democracy as set down historically and upheld in law.

When the judges arrive at their decision, we will know what the strength of a referendum result is for future reference in parliamentary terms. I can't guess the outcome any more than any other interested party but if world events can be altered on a whim, as it were, just because enough people hit the 'like' button on Facebook, for example, what kind of parliamentary system would that be - indeed, why would we need a parliament at all?

Tom

 

[anotherkiwi]

I can't guess the outcome any more than any other interested party but if world events can be altered on a whim, as it were, just because enough people hit the 'like' button on Facebook, for example, what kind of parliamentary system would that be - indeed, why would we need a parliament at all?

It's called "Anarchy" Tom, reminds me of a song, John Lydon foreseeing Brexit? ...

 

[Zlatan]

View attachment 16686

Location: France seems pretty clear to me

Fair point. It isn't tho. I,ll change it.
Changed it. Hope you approve .

 

[derf]

Fair point. It isn't tho. I,ll change it.
Changed it. Hope you approve .

careful, too many seamless changes of identity and we may begin to think you're boris..

 

[tillson]

'tillson', I understand that it's very easy for those in the 'remain' camp to see the gaping holes in the 'Brexit' fantasy and forcefully point them out to those conned by professional agitators and rabblerousers. However, if you really insist on trying to defend the indefensible, surely it is not beyond your intelligence to explain why we should ignore the glaring errors and inconsistencies purveyed by the leaders of the 'Brexit' movement.

In destroying the case for 'Brexit', only basic facts have been used so if there is anything certain, factual or perhaps even probable, likely to result from proceeding with the madness of 'Brexit', that 'remainers' may have missed, could you bring those to our attention?

I'm inclined to believe you are devoid of any positive thoughts, let alone facts, to corroborate the case you so passionately support. Were that not the case, you would refrain from falling into the trap of 'ad hominem', the last refuge of those unable to argue their case logically. Your unconditional support for the recently acquired forum troll simply adds to my sense of disappointment that you have chosen to align yourself with fascists, racists and the lunatic fringe generally.

Tom

Tom,

The truth is no one knows what BREXIT will mean. At one extreme, we could exit the EU, not pay a penny into it, enjoy free trade and be free to negotiate our trade deals world wide. At the other extreme, we could end up retaining all the things that BREXIT was meant to end and be much worse off economically. The truth is, no one knows what will happen. We all have our own idea and mine is that we will end up closer to the first scenario that I quoted than to the second. You and the majority on this thread clearly think the second scenario is more likely. Nothing wrong at this stage.

The problems then start because you think that you are privy to some kind of insider information on BREXIT. That you posses knowledge far greater than the government and are able to predict the outcome with certainty. You then believe that anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. It's simply ridiculous. Laughable.

There isn't really anything to discuss. The vote happened, BREXIT was the choice, let's get on with it.

 

[oldtom]

There isn't really anything to discuss. The vote happened, BREXIT was the choice, let's get on with it.

You have resorted again to the language of the playground 'tillson'. What you just wrote equals: 'We won; you lost, ha ha!'

Regardless of that, moving on to your comment, 'let's get on with it', why should we commit economic and political suicide just because the uninformed and the misled were gulled by a silver-tongued charlatan? Moreover, what makes you think that 'Brexit' is a good thing when the vast, vast majority of the populations of member states are happy to remain?

Maybe if you were less blinkered and had recently visited France and Germany on town-twinning business, you would have a better understanding of how European mainlanders view the EU and what they think of 'Brexit'. I really can't take your contributions seriously any more.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Tom,

The truth is no one knows what BREXIT will mean. At one extreme, we could exit the EU, not pay a penny into it, enjoy free trade and be free to negotiate our trade deals world wide. At the other extreme, we could end up retaining all the things that BREXIT was meant to end and be much worse off economically. The truth is, no one knows what will happen. We all have our own idea and mine is that we will end up closer to the first scenario that I quoted than to the second. You and the majority on this thread clearly think the second scenario is more likely. Nothing wrong at this stage.

The problems then start because you think that you are privy to some kind of insider information on BREXIT. That you posses knowledge far greater than the government and are able to predict the outcome with certainty. You then believe that anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. It's simply ridiculous. Laughable.
There isn't really anything to discuss. The vote happened, BREXIT was the choice, let's get on with it.

The question is, does anyone know what won't happen, and there I think the situation is much clearer.
We can assume with a high level of probability certain things

1. The Government will remain incompetent
2. The Bankers will profit and the people won't
3. British Management couldn't run a Whelk Stall
4. We are hugely in Debt as a Nation
5. Our own investors have the loyalty of Pirates to the Country
6. Our industries are and will remain in a parlous state
7. Our Forces are inadequate, brave but hopelessly outnumbered
8. There are no guarantees of a continuous income from the Service based economies
9. Our infrastructure is woefully inadeqaute.
10. Nothing we can make to sell cannot be obtained cheaper and better from somewhere else.

There is in fact absolutely no positive reason to assume now, or at any conceivable future time that we will become the sort of competitive Nation necessary to be successful in the modern world.

We are simply shooting ourselves in both feet on the basis of a belief akin to that of either Father Christmas or the Tooth Fairy.
It is indeed simply ridiculous, laughable indeed!
I.M.H.O

 

[oldgroaner]

Zlatan from France ?? I,m not French. Never mentioned France!
I got interested in the political discussion and amazed how argumentative and opinionated some posters were..especially you Tom.
I stuck around to see how offensive you were, so its entirely your fault I stayed.
Interestingly my question on bike forum attracted some interest and some help.( dv8eh thanks) but its long faded.
But this one runs and runs..!!! On a bike forum !
But yep right again..I,m really Theresa May. OG thought I was Nigel Farage !
But actually what difference does it make, we should be judged by what we say not who we are, but plainly Tom cant do that.

Mike
Couldn't resist bad spelling icon..good post.Cant agree with it all but it will raise blood pressure of a couple of posters..Two sides to every argument.

It's no good Nigel, you don't fool me, so there!

 

[tillson]

Regardless of that, moving on to your comment, 'let's get on with it', why should we commit economic and political suicide just because the uninformed and the misled were gulled by a silver-tongued charlatan? Moreover, what makes you think that 'Brexit' is a good thing when the vast, vast majority of the populations of member states are happy to remain?

But that is just your opinion. You do NOT know.

 

[oldtom]

On your opinions, you can not see that both sides of argument have been conned, misled and lied to. Its exactly why I refused to vote.(and I was in Australia at time )

Is there anything you'd like to explain to me or the small readership in general about the benefits of pursuing our exit from the EU? It seems that your only input is criticism of those who wish to see the UK remain within the EU but you have never contributed anything positive to encourage remainers to have second thoughts.

You really are difficult to take seriously at all - like some kind of jack-in-the-box puppet who pops up from a French domicile one day and then from the north pole the next, nothing positive to say but happy to disparage the long-term contributors to this thread. Have you got some previous experience of internet trolling or is this a new venture for you?

Tom