With all due respect Zlatan, I think you need to grow up a bit and refrain from adding stupidity to your other shortcomings.
Tom
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Tom
Please go and read what the EU does. It does provide money for science and infrastructure in disadvantaged areas of the UK. And that is a bad thing?
You are, 'anotherkiwi', and not for the first time, absolutely spot-on with your comment. If only those who have expressed such reasons for supporting 'Brexit' as being faults to be laid at the door of the EU when it is Westminster that holds responsibility could understand the truth of the matter.
Tom
Last edited:
Doesn't have any impact whatsoever on those people already marginalised. The point I'm making is that to effect change maybe the status quo has to be challenged. Democratic voting just seems to result in more of the same. The EU is seen as the embodiment of the status quo. Logical arguments don't work here. To leave the EU was an emotional, not a logical choice. If you go back to my very first posting, you will see that I am saying that logic is hopeless in the face of emotion. Unless the emotional aspects are addressed then logic just winds people up. Maybe this why this forum is not getting any logical reasons for Brexit. It is just the wrong question to ask.
Let's say then that Brexit voters do understand that they are victims of their own government but are refusing to admit it and looked for the first scapegoat they could find and acted on emotion not logical judgement.
And how then are you going to govern a country where emotion primes over logic?
How are you going to govern a country where extremist propaganda has more sway than hard facts and real news?
And how then are you going to govern a country where emotion primes over logic?
How are you going to govern a country where extremist propaganda has more sway than hard facts and real news?
The problem is unfortunately yours, why not admit it, and things were not improved on here by your attitude, or the remarks you made, but why on earth would that affect your attitude to Ebikes?
Very strange behaviour. and that last line demonstrates that you have a very odd way of looking at the world. and really don't see any fault on your own part do you?
Why would other Ebikers take any notice of you other than to pass a friendly greeting?
If you do meet some, try to be civil, rather than lecture them as you did here.
Still, away you go and enjoy Ebiking,
'homemoz', I have close family in one of those countries and I visit from time to time. Their lifestyle is not hugely different to that of we here in the UK although they pay heavily in taxation for excellent welfare state benefits. Notwithstanding that common whinge, I doubt whether many of them would wish to emigrate to the UK. So, they are happy except for having to pay too much in taxes. Happiness is different things to different people, I guess, but I didn't draw up the criteria for such a comparative measurement so I don't know how much credence we should give to that league table.
Regardless of that, the WHR to which you have alluded is is really a bit of a distraction from the fundamental problem of a 'them and us' society where the gulf betwixt the two seems to grow wider, year after year.
I'm taking a guess here but I feel that you are not averse to the principle of an integrated EU although you perhaps feel that it needs sorting because of certain aspects you find unpalatable, shall we say? If I'm right in that, then I too have some reservations, not about the ultimate goal or the current direction but about the lack of information disseminated to explain policy changes for example.
At times, there could be more transparency about what is going on but I believe my criticisms about those aspects are more to do with the Westminster elite than the people in Brussels. Our government could keep us better informed about the EU than has been the case but they have chosen to use their media wing to very deliberately pass the blame for much of the nation's discontent on to the EU. That suits government, especially the kind of government which has sold off all the great industries that should be exporting products the rest of the world wants to buy.
We need to fix the 'them and us' society and create a fairer UK and we need to model our future on that of the German, Japanese and South Korean examples.
Yes, I agree entirely about getting our own house in order but we should be doing that while inside the EU; not independently as a nation with very limited exports and a huge appetite for foreign goods.
Tom
I am actually in favour of a fully integrated EU & see myself as a European if not quite world citizen. However, when I was looking at the happiness table I was struck by the fact that practically all the countries in the top 10 have relatively low (to the UK) population density compared to size. It makes me wonder if rather than dismiss concerns about migration there is something else going on. Any population which is perceived as overcrowded seems to experience an upsurge in emotionally charged aggression i.e prisons. In the UK this is heightened by the fragmentation of social groups & the loss of a moral arbitor as in the Church or monarchy. I am not saying these are good things necessarily but rather that we have added to existing instability & this is the resulting chaos. There will always be people with extreme views but in a balanced society these are kept in check by accepted social rules and the law. Unless people feel heard they will rebel. Not the fault of the EU but not helped by it either. As I say, I can choose how I live, others are not so fortunate.
Two interesting points, first of all the EU has never had the Sovereignty the Brexiters assumed it had to bring about social changes that were controlled by local Governments.
It's remit was to improve trade, conditions of work , law and the environment where there was an opportunity to do so not stymied by loal Governments, so in this is has indeed not been very successful.
It compounds an existing problem? now there you are joking as the major migrations into this country were either induced by the following
The UK Governments policy to import cheap labour
Our unfortunate habit of setting the Middle East ablaze by our aggressive wars over resources
The surprising fact that the Conservative government voted for the inclusion of the New Eastern Nation with this
"In 2002, Tory MEP Roger Helmer, who went on to defect to Ukip, put it like this: "Tory policy on enlargement is clear. We are in favour of it, for three reasons. First, we owe a moral debt to the countries of central and eastern Europe, which were allowed to fall under the pall of communism after the second world war. Second, by entrenching democracy and the rule of law in eastern Europe, we ensure stability and security for the future. Third, an extra hundred million people in our single market may be a short-term liability, but long term will contribute to growth and prosperity."
What do we get for the money?
We have thrived under it's membership and that is despite de-industrialisation and relying on Services to plug the gap
Lose them and we are sunk without a trace.
The worlds biggest market to sell into with too many barriers.
Eventually membership of a huge and forwards looking major power block.
So what do we gain by leaving.
Going back in time to relying on a team of low rate losers to run the country and the economy, who will take the opportunity to rip off and mistreat the public.
A paltry sum after all the incurred debts have been paid off.
Take back control? how can you take back something that you never lost, but simply are incapable of exercising?
The Government lost count of the numbers entering the country remember?
Limit immigration? and if the economy falters what is the very first thing the government has determined it will do ? if necessary increase the number of immigrants.
Control our borders?
Three patrol boats to cover 7,500 miles of coastline and a Navy that breaks down and makes us a laughing stock.
A Pitiful Army, Navy and Air force, all brave and all that but outnumbered vastly by any credible opposition.
The Coastguards rely on the Coastwatch Charity to cover the coast during daylight hours, and in fact the first line of defence is the valiant RNLI with over 370 first class boats and crews, who are of course only there to save lives at sea, but throw into contrast the difference between an efficient organisation and the nations defences.
and do we have the money available to change any of this?
And finally the Strategic Brilliance of leaving at a moment when the EU decides it wants an Army (Let me remind you that we had the power as a member to Veto that)
So we are now in the situation where an Armed Force far superior to out own sits across the channel, and by choice we have made ourselves into a possible opponent to it.
Utter Brilliance as a Military strategy.
Employment
In the recent past the policy of employers was to use cheap imported Labour and have the Taxpayer fund Welfare patyments to keep the unemployed passive.
Interestingly this has failed as the unemployed resented immigrants taking their jobs, and since the policy of the Government changed to vilifying the Welfare recipients and force them into Zero hours and low paid work, this feeling has intensified , and has actually worked against the Government as the struggling lower orders have now decided somehow it isn't the Government screwing them, but foreign workers getting all the good jobs.
Tell me now, with organisational talent of the sort our leaders display , how can one possibly think this Brexit Gamble can be pulled off, when all power falls into their incompetent hands?
They are not going to put our own house in order are they?
Agreed and the answer is obvious
The question resolves itself and is
How to reform ourselves ie the Nation, it's attitudes and systems, and Controlling organisations.
Big problem!
The problem is this isn't a people's revolution, just a convulsion organised and paid for a a faction of that very elite, for a far from helpful to the people agenda.
So don't hold out any hope of improvement from this particular episode.
It's very difficult to say with certainty, since London is such an anomaly. We have the highest immigration effect with well over half the population not white British born, yet we have the highest satisfaction about immigration and voted solidly to remain in the EU with its immigration policies.
You can see how that's diametrically opposed to much else of the country.
And yet another anomaly is that those with the least immigrants often kick up the greatest fuss about them. I well remember some years ago the Welsh town that was so infuriated by immigrants that it took to the streets with a mass march to protest about being overwhelmed by the number of immigrants.
It subsequently transpired that this town of 40,000 inhabitants had accepted just 22 immigrants!
.
I do see your point. wales - one of the biggest recipients of eu funding - voted leave. so what to do when faced with uninformed voters taking out their frustration, wrongly, on bodies that have not done them any harm? clearly trying to educate them hasn't worked (too logical). what would an emotional response be? the emotional aspect of brexit was largely about xenophobia, greed taken to a self destructive level. it's a bit like trying to make a violently destructive person aware of boundaries. I'm afraid the only remedy is some pain. it's ironic but dead appropriate that it will hit those who mainly voted for brexit the hardest.
Which is why I have been in favour of triggering Article 50.
A lesson in reality may note: may work, although there will still be the same baleful influences moulding public opinion away from the truth, and it will be a test of their persuasive power, versus the pain being felt.
A message from Gove
"
Mr Gove said the UK's current ambassador should keep his job, but said "we should not be abusing" the interim Ukip leader.
He told The Andrew Marr Show: "I certainly think we should not be abusing Nigel Farage, but I think that the current ambassador in the United States, Kim Darroch — whom I worked with when he was in a different role in government — is a fantastic guy, great diplomat.
He added: "We should have professionals doing their job. But certainly, Nigel Farage, four million people voted for him at the last general election.
He's someone who, even though I may disagree with him on some issues, should be respected and not abused."
Gove proves that a brain is not necessary to be a past Minister in Charge of Education. or a Champion of Hard Brexit
The Actual number that voted for Farage was, wait for it, 16,026
"
Mr Gove said the UK's current ambassador should keep his job, but said "we should not be abusing" the interim Ukip leader.
He told The Andrew Marr Show: "I certainly think we should not be abusing Nigel Farage, but I think that the current ambassador in the United States, Kim Darroch — whom I worked with when he was in a different role in government — is a fantastic guy, great diplomat.
He added: "We should have professionals doing their job. But certainly, Nigel Farage, four million people voted for him at the last general election.
He's someone who, even though I may disagree with him on some issues, should be respected and not abused."
Gove proves that a brain is not necessary to be a past Minister in Charge of Education. or a Champion of Hard Brexit
The Actual number that voted for Farage was, wait for it, 16,026
Yes, there is pain which hurts and one may need to take a painkiller. Then there is acute pain which may require several painkillers. An even more severe pain is the pain one gets in one's pocket which no amount of painkillers can relieve.
I just hope my savings are sufficient!
Tom
never voted labour in my life, but can't argue with this MPs logic.
http://www.boslabour.org.uk/why_i_cannot_vote_to_trigger_article_50
http://www.boslabour.org.uk/why_i_cannot_vote_to_trigger_article_50