Brexit, for once some facts.

[tillson]

Tillson, I am middle class and obsessed with house prices, currency, inflation, cost of living. Can't see anything wrong with that.

I am working class (I work for a living), and likewise, these factors are of a concern to me.

derf, was portraying this as a negative thing and I was pointing out that he has been very vocal about exchange rates, house prices etc. These concerns are not the exclusive preserve of the uncaring.

 

[trex]

derf talks a lot about the thing that many remainers see in brexit: it is inextricably linked to xenophobia (fear of cultural dilution on top of blood). if we could take xenophobia out of brexit, many more will be willing to give brexit a chance.

 

[oldtom]

The human species, unlike other animals, does not learn from its mistakes. History demonstrates how we keep repeating the same follies with enormous cost, usually to the young of the species most particularly. Sadly, very few politicians achieve university degrees in History, preferring to study the fantasy subjects within the PP&E curriculum.

The AAV blog has turned up this gem from no less than Ernest Hemingway whom I think nails the problem with politics, government and international behaviour:



Hemingway wrote this in 1935 in an essay called "Notes on the next war" in which he predicted the beginning of the Second World War in Europe.

The pattern seems to be repeating in the 21st Century: Severe economic mismanagement and stagnation followed by the rise of extremist demagogues. The difference this time is that the demagogues are rising in Britain and America, not Germany and Italy.

Tom

 

[Croxden]

The human species, unlike other animals, does not learn from its mistakes.

Tom

It's a fact, hedgehogs only get run over once.

 

[oldtom]

It's 71 years since WW2 but I'm not sure we have learned much of any value over those years. This chap, who was actually half-English understood but didn't live long enough to see the second world war.



Tom

 

[trex]

Sadly, very few politicians achieve university degrees in History, preferring to study the fantasy subjects within the PP&E curriculum.

I much prefer the opposite, our aspiring politicians should really be doing PPE or PPS instead of history. A little more fact based thinking won't hurt. One example: Cameron did PPE and Rees Mogg History. Which one do you dislike more?

 

[flecc]

derf, you have been one of the most vocal people on here when discussing currency values, house prices, inflation, wages and cost of living. Almost to the point of obsession.

But he's not wrong, these have long been obsessions with the English middle class and Derf is just commenting on that sad fact and it's accompanying ills.
.

 

[oldtom]

Working class (retired)

Tom

 

[derf]

I am working class (I work for a living), and likewise, these factors are of a concern to me.

derf, was portraying this as a negative thing and I was pointing out that he has been very vocal about exchange rates, house prices etc. These concerns are not the exclusive preserve of the uncaring.

well, yes. but I take an interest in exchange rates, house prices, inflation as someone who voted remain. in other words as someone who didn't engage in the destructive acting out that is brexit, and isn't responsible for it or its damage, as those who voted brexit are.
by analogy: its a bit like objecting to physical pain inflicted by the holocaust while not objecting to the moral outrage. it's different when a Jew as opposed to a Nazi does that, no?
I'm afraid I disagree trex: I would object to brexit even without the xenophobia. I don't think protectionism and nation states focusing on narrow self interests while ignoring the plight of others in the world (when they are often the cause of it) is either right, or part of the way forward in a globalising world. brexit and trump are regressive little detours that wont change the general course of history, I think their artefacts of the 2008 crisis that will be forgotten in time

 

[mike killay]

I think that Xenophobia is a word that has been misunderstood, bandied around inaccurately and changed from 'irrational fear of foreigners' to a term of abuse.
Whether the Brexit voters truly are xenophobic remains to be seen, but the popularity of foreign holidays makes me think that they are not.
The Gillian Duffy/Gordon Brown exchange years ago is persuasive that what we are talking about is something more like a large 1970s style closed shop.

 

[mike killay]

'Not ignoring the plight of others in the World'
Sounds great, but generally means poking our noses into other people's affairs when we are not wanted, then bombing them to pieces.
Let people determine their own future.

 

[flecc]

Whether the Brexit voters truly are xenophobic remains to be seen, but the popularity of foreign holidays makes me think that they are not.

But a high proportion are not actually "foreign" holidays!

They are holidays spent in a portion of England established in a sunnier land, surrounded by fellow Britons and complete with fish and chips, roast beef, union jack shorts and burnt red beer bellies.
.

 

[derf]

'Not ignoring the plight of others in the World'
Sounds great, but generally means poking our noses into other people's affairs when we are not wanted, then bombing them to pieces.
Let people determine their own future.

in a globalised interdependent world that isn't possible. the android phone in your pocket was made in a sweatshop in china, by exploited underpaid workers. the uk does not supply arms to the Saudis because it cares, it's about oil, and arms sales, neither of which is about to stop being issues. none of it sadly has anything to do with the uk caring about anyone else's plight. drawing up the drawbridge and pretending one can return, existentially, to an early 20th century nation state isn't an option anymore

 

[oldtom]

But a high proportion are not actually "foreign" holidays!

They are holidays spent in a portion of England established in a sunnier land, surrounded by fellow Britons and complete with fish and chips, roast beef, union jack shorts and burnt red beer bellies.
.

That description in my experience is absolutely spot-on!

Tom

 

[anotherkiwi]

Whether the Brexit voters truly are xenophobic remains to be seen, but the popularity of foreign holidays makes me think that they are not.

The English abroad are mostly found in little ghettos surrounded by other English. I don't think Brexit voters can afford foreign holidays outside of Benidorm (and other low budget locations) and that certainly isn't Spain any more...

(missed flecc's post higher up)

 

[oldgroaner]

It's a fact, hedgehogs only get run over once.

I think pheasants make a better comparator
Like humans if they don't kill themselves immediately they keep trying

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[oldgroaner]

I much prefer the opposite, our aspiring politicians should really be doing PPE or PPS instead of history. A little more fact based thinking won't hurt. One example: Cameron did PPE and Rees Mogg History. Which one do you dislike more?

Neither



Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[derf]

I am working class (I work for a living), and likewise, these factors are of a concern to me.

derf, was portraying this as a negative thing and I was pointing out that he has been very vocal about exchange rates, house prices etc. These concerns are not the exclusive preserve of the uncaring.

in the spirit of being caring and concerned about the economy, the trade gap is widening, despite the lower pound..
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/09/uk-trade-deficit-widens-september-exports-fall-pound-drop

 

[tillson]

Is there a war coming?

I don't think Brexit voters can afford foreign holidays outside of Benidorm (and other low budget locations) and that certainly isn't Spain any more...

(missed flecc's post higher up)

Just read that out loud to yourself and take the time to digest how ridficulous it sounds. I've just shown it to a few colleagues, most of whom voted remain, and without exception they found hilarity in the pompus tone. A classic Capt Mainwaring.

And then people wonder why a BREXIT vote prevailed.

 

[trex]

in the spirit of being caring and concerned about the economy, the trade gap is widening, despite the lower pound..
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/09/uk-trade-deficit-widens-september-exports-fall-pound-drop

I honestly can't see when Donald Trump is going to sign an FTA with Mrs May.
the risks of brexit still far outweigh potential benefits.