Brexit, for once some facts.

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
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Well I suppose what was voted for 40+ years ago is not the same thing as we have today.

So, I guess what you are saying is that this comes down to the frequency of subsequent referendums. Since the spacing between the first referendum and the latest, held in June, was 43 years, I think 16 weeks between the second and a proposed third is a bit too soon.

It still doesn't answer my question regarding what to do if another referendum returned the same result. What do we do in those circumstances?

As I say, I think the political parties need to nail their colours to the mast, state exactly where they stand on EU membership and what they intend to do if elected. Then call a general election.

My main concern is that May's heart isn't in BREXIT but she will unwillingly press on without enthusiasm because she thinks it will make her electable. That's not the right approach, we need someone fully committed to BREXIT.
I think May had no choice,after the referendum with 17 million people directing her,she had to become a Brexiter. If she had tried to scrap Brexit at that stage it would have been the shortest PM term.
Having accepted her position she had to persuade us all that she was/is going for it...Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a success of it.
But as time moves on it must be obvious to her that she has jumped upon the wrong horse,in fact she is strapped to it. She has positioned herself as 'Mrs Brexit' and no matter how awful it looks,no matter how complex its becoming she has to run with it,if Brexit fails she fails.
The recent problem is that her cabinet colleagues are realising that this Brexit idea is stalling because it is a very bad idea for our country and now they want to distance themselves from it. Hammond had to promise the bankers that we wouldnt leave the single market,nor exit bank passporting for the governments revenue loss would be catastropic if we lost the centre of the worlds finance in London.
May is in a difficult position,she knows she cannot go for hard Brexit and the EU wont let her have soft Brexit,so she might have to consider no Brexit,but she will have to position a fall guy,or guys,to take the can....enter the 3 Brexiters,hehe.
KudosDave
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,202
30,604
Today's inflation news and forecasts further underline what a disastrous decision has been taken with Brexit.

We're facing a very long and possibly indefinite period of pain if we exit the EU.
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trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
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in a perverse way, inflation is a blessing in disguise. Hammond will be happy, increased tax receipt while we are still inside the Single Market, and prospect of the tories losing the next general election is better as inflation creeps up. As long as the next government is not a conservative one, brexit will be history.
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Today's inflation news and forecasts further underline what a disastrous decision has been taken with Brexit.

We're facing a very long and possibly indefinite period of pain if we exit the EU.
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The rich are well able to withstand what will surely be hardship for the ordinary folk, a great many of whom actually voted for this nonsense out of ignorance and blind hatred for their fellow man, based on race.

If the evil fascists of the tory party continue to proceed towards 'Brexit', then all those 'Brexidiots' who supported the premise and gave their wholehearted backing to the multi-millionaire, rabble-rousers who created the mess, deserve to suffer the pain which, undoubtedly, will not be short-lived.

Sadly, the decent people who wished to remain in the EU will also have to suffer.

Tom
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Maybe it's because there has been such a transfer of powers since the last referendum when it was supposedly just about a common market. The politicians have been quick to say that any major transfer of powers would require a referendum, although there wasn't one regarding the last two major treaties. Maybe this was long overdue and our leaders knew it had to come. We are definitely going to feel some pain from it but nobody knows how much and maybe that saying ''no pain no gain '' may be applicable here. No matter how you try and distort the result a majority of the UK decided they wanted to leave the EU and remove the control they have over us. People will have voted that way for different reasons, as will the ones who voted to remain but if it's felt you can just ignore a democratic vote because the result is not to your liking, what's the point of voting. Please don't say we were lied to. We are lied to at every election. Please don't say they don't have a mandate. When has that ever stopped politicians. I know the ones that are posting on a regular basis on here don't like May and the conservatives. I am not overly fond, but I would like to know what the alternatives are. The EU has definitely done a lot of good for this country and we have been good for them, but they have tried to grow too fast and in the process caused a lot of problems. The time has come for a change. Question is. Are our politicians up to it after having the comfort blanket of the Eu for so long. I guess only time will tell
The answer to your last question is NO
And as I pointed out earlier we don't have the means to make and sell enough goods to have sufficient Tax returns to meet our costs.
And we were going downhill anyway with the deficit approaching £1.7 Trillion before 52% took the astonishing decision to vote leave
And that on the basis of not having a clue about what they were voting for, only Against, no idea we should do next, no plan or anything else but hope and a few rousing choruses of Rule Britannia to turn a safe situation into the sort of bet only fools would make.
And the chief Culprits of this little Drama immediately quit the stage to avoid and of the proverbial when it hits the fan..
Congratulations on taking a decision that will adversely effect the 48% who had more sense, but now also have to suffer for your action.
And all on the basis of lies, and propaganda.
You Broke it, you own it
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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It does look like May is going to lose the case about her triggering Article 50 without parliament approval.....the markets are already seeing this as a possibility that parliament will reject the terms upon which May wants to trigger Article 50,as a result the pound is ticking north.
If I were parliament I would say that May can trigger Article 50,but not let her negotiate to leave the single market,that is effectively saying 'no Brexit' but politically they would look good in Leavers eyes because it would look like they have got their cake and eat it (Boris quote)...the EU would reject it and we would be stuck in a limbo land.
It would be a disaster for May because she said she can trigger Article 50 in March,that is now unlikely to happen,Leavers would see this as very visual back peddling and give her hell.
What I am not amused about is this case with top flight QC's has cost lots of money(millions I suspect),our money that Theresa May is wasting,just to save her own political ambitions.....Mayhem!!
Even her own QC's dont seem briefed about their submissions,reading through the transcript they dont appear very good,the lady who took the action had the best counsel by far.

KudosDave
The British pound has jumped to its highest level in over a week Tuesday after a lawyer for Theresa May’s government said parliament will “very likely” have to ratify an eventual agreement between the U.K. and the European Union when the country leaves the bloc.

The comments are significant because the majority of MPs are opposed to leaving the EU, and are upset at indications that the government will not even try to keep the U.K. in the EU’s Single Market as it tries to negotiate the ‘Brexit’ settlement.

The U.K. sends over 40% of its exports to the EU, and the financial services sector, which accounts for over 10% of gross domestic product, is particularly dependent on unconstrained access to the Single Market. The pound has plunged in the last two weeks on fears that this access would be lost. If parliament were to reject the government’s draft settlement (and public opinion were to swing back behind Remaining), it is possible that the U.K. may stay in the EU after all.


James Eadie, who is representing May’s government in a High Court challenge over who has the right to trigger divorce talks, said members of parliament would very probably be allowed a say on the final exit deal.

“The government view at the moment is it is very likely that any such agreement will be subject to ratification” Eadie said.

Somewhat confusingly, Attorney General Jeremy Wright–also arguing the government’s case–however maintained that once the government formally notifies the rest of the EU of its decision to leave, the process would be irrevocable. That’s not only at odds with Eadie’s comments, but also with a broad hint from EU Council President Donald Tusk last week that “no Brexit” was still an option–“even if today hardly anyone believes in such a possibility.”
 

trex

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“The government view at the moment is it is very likely that any such agreement will be subject to ratification” Eadie said.
that's at least a bit of common sense.
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
The EU is the best thing that has ever happened in Europe. Joining the EU was the best thing the UK ever did.

All the great things that have been achieved in the UK over the last century occurred when we voted in a socialist government.

The other party, that of millionaires and billionaires, has worked tirelessly each time it has been in power to dismantle all those great institutions of state created by the Labour Party in order to create for themselves even greater wealth, while reducing the living standards and opportunities of ordinary people.

Tory politicians and the scum who vote for them are enemies of the British people, enemies of democracy and enemies of all foreign people. Arrogance and greed is their stock in trade and therein lies the reason why the UK has become a failed state with no means of support due to the lack of investment in Britain and its people by the selfish and greedy.

The EU has never caused the UK or its people any harm but the tory party has singularly and spectacularly raped our country - that is why we really have to be in the EU, along with several other weak countries unable to fend for themselves.

That our education system has failed to teach history properly is a major indictment on the state of the nation today. That, I believe, is no accident.

Tom
 

derf

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Aug 4, 2014
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The EU is the best thing that has ever happened in Europe. Joining the EU was the best thing the UK ever did.

All the great things that have been achieved in the UK over the last century occurred when we voted in a socialist government.

The other party, that of millionaires and billionaires, has worked tirelessly each time it has been in power to dismantle all those great institutions of state created by the Labour Party in order to create for themselves even greater wealth, while reducing the living standards and opportunities of ordinary people.

Tory politicians and the scum who vote for them are enemies of the British people, enemies of democracy and enemies of all foreign people. Arrogance and greed is their stock in trade and therein lies the reason why the UK has become a failed state with no means of support due to the lack of investment in Britain and its people by the selfish and greedy.

The EU has never caused the UK or its people any harm but the tory party has singularly and spectacularly raped our country - that is why we really have to be in the EU, along with several other weak countries unable to fend for themselves.

That our education system has failed to teach history properly is a major indictment on the state of the nation today. That, I believe, is no accident.

Tom
the historical writers association would agree
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/margaret-thatcher-named-worst-prime-minister-in-100-years/ar-AAj6dvS?li=AAdeCd7&ocid=spartanntp
specially like
"Neville Chamberlain had to contend with Hitler, Eden with Nasser: Cameron couldn't see off Nigel Farage.”"
 

trex

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we are a bit spoilt.
 
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oldgroaner

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"
The former Labour leader Ed Miliband, who is urging May to let parliament scrutinise the Brexit negotiations, says Labour should ready itself to capitalise on the mandate for change represented by the referendum result.

“Personally, I think Brexit is really important, and it’s got to become an opportunity for us,” he told an event in London to relaunch the New Economics Foundation (Nef) thinktank on Tuesday. “We’ve got to talk about the deeper forces at work with Brexit, but also why were those forces mobilised in part in a way that I didn’t manage, and Labour hasn’t managed?”

There is no way that I would vote for Labour or any other party that supports Brexit in any shape or form, not now not ever.
The Future of Europe is as a single united entity, not going back to petty Kingdoms, and no matter how long that takes, inevitably it will be the end result.
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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I think we are sufficiently advanced on Brexit that we should start to get some straight answers from May. Her legal team,I suspect directed by May said that it was 'highly likely' that parliament will get a final vote on the outcome of EU negotiations.
What we should demand is that May gives parliament a chance to vote on the form of Brexit before she triggers Article 50.
What would happen if May triggers Article 50 then 2 years later parliament throws it out,that would be a ridiculous situation.
It looks likely that May will lose the legal action using the royal prerogative to trigger Article 50 so she may have no choice to let parliament have a vote. May is on the back foot,she lost the discussion in parliament and had to issue an amendment to avoid a vote. Today her suggestion about the parliament Article 50 vote she was trying to keep some authority,but she is on a steep slippery slope,any further disagreement in cabinet will see her out.
KudosDave
 
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oldgroaner

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I think we are sufficiently advanced on Brexit that we should start to get some straight answers from May.
KudosDave
What baffles me is why there is such a big secret about what she should be asking for?
It is quite simply obvious what she is being asked to go for, and the notion she or one of the three stooges will turn up to the discussion and "Spring a Killer offer" on the EU delegates is utter absolute nonsense.
The whole point of her stance is to keep up the lie to Parliament that they do in fact have a plan, and will not simply be going there to accept whatever terms the EU are willing to give.
No clue, no plan, not a hope in hell of getting anything more than being turned "out on the street" facing punitive tariffs.
That is what will happen
The EU needs us like a person needs to be disembowelled with a blunt spoon.
We have achieved "Pariah" state in their eyes.
A bunch of losers, troublemakers, and simply History.
We will be out, and facing a bleak future.
When they finally take us back in due course it will be on their terms.
Well here is what she should do: tell them we DEMAND control of IMMIGRATION, ACCESS TO THE MARKET, and we won't pay you a penny.
And take it from there.
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
The EU needs us like a person needs to be disembowelled with a blunt spoon.
We have achieved "Pariah" state in their eyes.
A bunch of losers, troublemakers, and simply History.
We will be out, and facing a bleak future.
My biggest difficulty currently with this whole mess is the fact that even now, many of the massed hordes of 'Brexidiots' still cannot distinguish between the EU and a tory government, believing that all our ails are a direct result of EU policy/laws/rules/interference as Farage and his circus had them believe.

With such simpletons allowed to walk the streets thanks to that cost-saving measure of a few years ago, the closure of a whole raft of mental health facilities, replaced by the euphemistically-termed 'care in the community' programme, it is little wonder that fascist nutcases like Farage find easy support.

I honestly believe that many 'Brexidiots' don't realise that Farage and his now pointless movement, still pretending to be a political party, are actually tories - just a bit further to the right than the main party........Genghis Khan, Pol Pot and Joseph Stalin! Somehow, the pillocks seem to imagine that once removed from the 'shackles of EU oppression', all will be well in Britain and there will be no 'Johnny Foreigners' undercutting our first-class builders; no unwanted EU immigrants sponging off our welfare state and absolutely no middle-eastern terrorists posing as refugees to gain entry to the UK so they can destroy us all.

Perhaps I underestimate the 'Brexidiots' as it may be the case that they have carefully considered the sequence of events inevitable after 'Brexit' and worked out that wages will be higher, prices of fuel and goods in the shops will be cheaper because we don't need to pay squillions of pounds into the EU coffers. That of course is possible but will be contingent upon considerable growth in the job market and Mr Farage doesn't see any problems with British jobs for British workers.....or was that Paul Golding? It doesn't really matter as there is no significant difference between any one group of far-right fascists and another.

While I take no comfort from the final line in your piece OG, I'd like to say I admire the 'Brexidiots' for their committed and undeterred optimism!

Yes, I'd like to say that:(

Tom
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
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The European Union
Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a success of it.

The first bit we understand the second bit seems to be impossible unless the success is just getting out? Once you are out we will be much better off and be able to focus on making the EU Great Again and we wish you the very best of EU luck selling your world class products to the Chinese and the Indians!
 

trex

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You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
Mrs May has already started back pedalling, her 3 brexiteers will change their tune soon enough,
 
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shemozzle999

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Sep 28, 2009
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Given all the comments received from the public thoughout, one would have to be very dumb not to know that the major issues for Brexiters were getting back sovereignty and immigration control.

When questioned about the purpose of the desired sovereignty, it was quickly revealed that a major purpose was to control our borders. In other words, also about immigration.

Clearly immigration in various disguises was the overwhelming issue. The other sovereignty issue of being able to make our own laws was a rather distant runner up in comments.

That's how I know.
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One will continue to believe that without hard evidence that the perceived apportionment of leave voters views cannot accurately be reported.
 
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oldgroaner

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One will continue to believe that without hard evidence that the perceived apportionment of leave voters views cannot be accurately be reported.
Or even that they had a specific coherent reason, other than a general dissatisfaction, blamed the EU as part of the Status Quo, (as years of propaganda from the media has been succesful) and they wished to lash out at the establishment.
The simple idea being "if the Government wants something, we don't"
What you can say with certainty is they were voting in the hope of achieving something "better"
And to assert that they had anything concrete in the way of reason for that expectation is pure fantasy.They only had vague Promises to go on, and no plan as to how to make them come true
These wild promises were made by plausible public figures who have since distanced themselves from bearing any responsibility for making them come true by saying "if Brexit fails it is the responsibility of the whole Government"
Many reasons indeed, all based on hope, none on logic. as change is not by it's nature preordained to guarantee change for the better.
"Don't bother me with facts, I've made my mind up" was the order of the day for Brexit voters, and to a great many still remains.
The only way to cure this idiocy is in the acid test that is to come when we end up outside the EU.
Unfortunately the 48% and the huge number who didn't bother to vote will be dragged into the mire with those who voted for Brexit.
 
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trex

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essential to the success or failure of brexit is the 16 million britons who are poor. Houses prices go up, wages stagnate, nearly all of them have none or not much savings beside their house.
They are the easy pickings for the brexiters.
 

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