Brexit, for once some facts.

[BrendanJ]

I think people are concerned about losing control of UK law and our ability to govern ourselves. I don't think people want to be part of a USA type of arrangement which is creeping up on them without any say.

Importantly, I think people perceive the EU as a failing enterprise with massive problems looming, most of which are being swept under the carpet. There are many failing economies within the EU and people fear that the UK will be forced into bankrolling them to keep the EU dream alive. We coughed up in the region of £1 billion to prop up Greece and we have "Greece 2" in the making along with Itally and Portugal and Spain and.... This is a concern.

This is based on talking to the people that I work with and talk to. Maybe we keep different company if all of yours were migration based.

I agree
For me it is not about imagration, but accept for some this is worrying, they see the impact in housing, social support, Health care. It is not racism
It is not about the economic arguements, because who can prove one way or another what will be in 10 years
But I agree the EU is a failing project, sinking, wrotten to the core, undemocratic, burecratic, and will drag this country down with it. That is what most people suspect, even if they cannot pinpoint it. In which case take back control becomes the rational conclusion.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I think people are concerned about losing control of UK law and our ability to govern ourselves. I don't think people want to be part of a USA type of arrangement which is creeping up on them without any say.

Importantly, I think people perceive the EU as a failing enterprise with massive problems looming, most of which are being swept under the carpet. There are many failing economies within the EU and people fear that the UK will be forced into bankrolling them to keep the EU dream alive. We coughed up in the region of £1 billion to prop up Greece and we have "Greece 2" in the making along with Itally and Portugal and Spain and.... This is a concern.

This is based on talking to the people that I work with and talk to. Maybe we keep different company if all of yours were migration based.

It may just happen that a compromise will evolve over the next few years.
Merkel and the German people must be fed up with propping up the Med lands ,plus Greece. i wonder whether Germany itself may start questioning the EU model and wish to align with a smaller group that it can trust.
Brexit and the Labour party fiasco has dominated our news but the failure of these Italian banks could have a contagion effect,Greece hasnt asked for a bailout for a few weeks so another is due.
KudosDave

 

[BrendanJ]

Dont think the Greeks are all poor,those that shifted their Euros into Swiss Francs and then saw the value jump in 2 hours by 30%,that was the morning that the Swiss uncoupled their currency from the Euro.
Greeks who have money,have lots of money,but Merkel is never going to see any of it. I parked my boat next to a Greek registered Admiral built boat named Aqua,all 10 million Euros of it.
Its not the Germans who are buying up the islands its the Russians,they own big chunks of the Ionian Islands now and the marinas are being bought by the Turks.
i rarely meet a German in the Ionian Islands,its mostly Brits,Dutch and Swedes.
The Germans used to buy Majorca and Ibiza,not been there for a while so not sure thats still the case.
KudosDave

dave I give up, have it your own way

 

[BrendanJ]

Since you are so quick to criticise others, may I point out that it was Norman Tebbitt who said that, not Margaret Thatcher?
.

Flecc, does that make a dam of difference? Did you understand the point at all?

 

[Kudoscycles]

Derf . I give up, have it your own way

Brendan,I think you may have had a bit too much of the dandelion juice,you are confusing Derf with me.
I have been boating the Greek Islands for 8 years now,I see the changes happening,I dont know much about Athens but in the islands it seems quite prosperous,but that is tourism led,in Winter its a ghost area.
But I know that many young people would love to continue working in Greece but most accept they will have to move to northern Europe to get year round work.
Dont forget that we have had 2 world wars,pretty much caused by one bit of the world screwing the other down,this is particularly the case with WW2,the French taking the steel producing income of the Ruhr valley as compensation for WW1.
It is a compliment to our young people that they have been so tolerant of the economics they find themselves trapped in,it would not take much of a spark to ignite riots in Spain and France,if we restrict free movement of those peoples to the UK,that might just be the spark
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

Flecc, does that make a dam of difference? Did you understand the point at all?

Just the response I expected, I knew you'd rise to it!

You love dealing out criticism but can't take even a hint of it.
.

 

[BrendanJ]

Brendan,I think you may have had a bit too much of the dandelion juice,you are confusing Derf with me.
I have been boating the Greek Islands for 8 years now,I see the changes happening,I dont know much about Athens but in the islands it seems quite prosperous,but that is tourism led,in Winter its a ghost area.
But I know that many young people would love to continue working in Greece but most accept they will have to move to northern Europe to get year round work.
KudosDave

Yes, guilty as charged, after a while all these posts just merge into one.
You are right in what you say, and I too love Greece, a lovely people and not to be confused with there own corrupt elites and burecratics and politicians.
I just do not see how it can be right that 50% of the under 25s have to leave if they are to have anything more than a meagre living
The EU and the Germans have treated then cruelly and it will come back on them.
I have no sympathy at all with the German bankers, and even if you did. How can this be possibly interpreted as a sustainable and just model of governance for the EU superstate

And it is not just Greece, look at Spain, Portugal, Italy, southern france

Just like Rome in days gone past the EU will burn if it persists in this approach

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Brendan,I think you may have had a bit too much of the dandelion juice,you are confusing Derf with me.
I have been boating the Greek Islands for 8 years now,I see the changes happening,I dont know much about Athens but in the islands it seems quite prosperous,but that is tourism led,in Winter its a ghost area.
But I know that many young people would love to continue working in Greece but most accept they will have to move to northern Europe to get year round work.
KudosDave

I,ve spent a lot if time on Kos..and a bit in Athens.
Probably its all my fault because Kos was inundated with refugees at time.( all pleasant, recounted story on another thread about my attempts at helping a family) and I witnessed the riots over austerity in Athens.

Tourists dont see the real places. Jamaica is fantastic from cruise boat, bit of a nightmare in places..(. Crocodiles on my home town beach and bigger ones in Kingston) Is Jamaica in EU yet..???

 

[flecc]

I have been boating the Greek Islands for 8 years now,I see the changes happening,I dont know much about Athens but in the islands it seems quite prosperous

The Greeks have plenty of money, remember me posting this on the 8th June in this thread:

As for Greeks trying to run businesses, they have a large and very wealthy class still making lots of money from their businesses. Greek shipping for example, the world's largest shipping fleet by tonnage, worth €251.1 billion in 2015 income. That's huge for a country of under 11 million people, €20,000 per head from just one of their businesses. Someone can live very well on €20,000 a year in Greece!

If tax was paid on that and its personal proceeds, they might not have so many problems.

The Greeks don't have any problems due to the EU, they've caused all of their own problems.
.

 

[BrendanJ]

Fleck, read my lips, 50% of the under 25s are unemployed, what do you say to them?, it's the same in Spain and Italy
Do you think this is sustainable? And what will the EU superstate do about it?
If we stay in it could be our children next.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I see Tim Martin the boss of Wetherspoons is still banging the Brexit drum,maybe he thinks that the devastating effects of us leaving will drive us all to drink,hehe
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

The Greeks have plenty of money, remember me posting this on the 8th June in this thread:

As for Greeks trying to run businesses, they have a large and very wealthy class still making lots of money from their businesses. Greek shipping for example, the world's largest shipping fleet by tonnage, worth €251.1 billion in 2015 income. That's huge for a country of under 11 million people, €20,000 per head from just one of their businesses. Someone can live very well on €20,000 a year in Greece!

If tax was paid on that and its personal proceeds, they might not have so many problems.

The Greeks don't have any problems due to the EU, they've caused all of their own problems.
.

The Greeks in the islands have their own local economy,enough said.

 

[BrendanJ]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36744911

 

[Kudoscycles]

Fleck, read my lips, 50% of the under 25s are unemployed, what do you say to them?, it's the same in Spain and Italy
Do you think this is sustainable? And what will the EU superstate do about it?
If we stay in it could be our children next.

Sorry Brendan,you have confused me now. All the young people I have spoken to want to Remain,for they see that they need to look for work across the whole of Europe not just the UK.
The same is for young people from Spain,Italy or Romania-fly any low cost airlines these days and its full of these same young people.
But,unless I have read the Leave hopes wrong,they want to stop these young people working in the UK,but you want the EU to support these young people,surely that means we have to support free movement.
I am confused now.
I suspect there are many reasons why our youngsters find it so difficult to get work,well those that want to work,but I dont see how leaving the EU is going to help them.
KudosDave

 

[BrendanJ]

Sorry Brendan,you have confused me now. All the young people I have spoken to want to Remain,for they see that they need to look for work across the whole of Europe not just the UK.
The same is for young people from Spain,Italy or Romania-fly any low cost airlines these days and its full of these same young people.
But,unless I have read the Leave hopes wrong,they want to stop these young people working in the UK,but you want the EU to support these young people,surely that means we have to support free movement.
I am confused now.
I suspect there are many reasons why our youngsters find it so difficult to get work,well those that want to work,but I dont see how leaving the EU is going to help them.
KudosDave

Dave I am not talking about free movement of labour which is a sideshow. I am talking about the economic performance of the EU, and in particular the euro area. But then I think you know that

 

[flecc]

Fleck, read my lips, 50% of the under 25s are unemployed, what do you say to them?, it's the same in Spain and Italy
Do you think this is sustainable? And what will the EU superstate do about it?
If we stay in it could be our children next.

Of course it's not sustainable, but its not a matter for the EU to deal with, it's a national governments issue. This is something that baffles me about so many Brexiter's positions, they dislike the EU having any sovereignty yet for any problem seem to want the EU to have more powers than they have.

There's a widespread problem with youth employment, our own is three times the adult rate and no-one seems to have an answer or know specifically why the young find it so much more difficult to get employed than adults.
.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Will some advocate of free movement of all people please explain to me how Luxembourg can become 2nd richest nation on planet with virtually no immigrants yet a part of EU??

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Without getting into details I am on the board of directors of a multi national turning over 1 billion euro in europe, is that good enough for you,
But don't let it stop you being patronising if it makes you feel good

Why not go into details?? Something to hide?

But we'll ignore that.

So if you're exporting around Europe, you'll know the benefits that are found within the trading block. Ie no tariffs, cheaper logistics etc etc.

So as I see it, if we leave the EU, and as you also want leave the EEA. We'll be outside, so all our exports into it will be subject to these tariffs (I know bikes, so I know on bikes its 9%) this will make our exports less competitive as all the EU customers will be able to buy from each other and others who have trade agreements with the EU tarriff free.

1) So this will have a negative impact on our exports.

Then, our imports from the EU (which is a lot) will be subjected to tariffs because we'll be outside the EU, so again on bikes its 9%, plus there will be the VAT headache, and other hassles, so general products will likely jump 10-15% over night.

2) So this will have a negative impact on our pockets because everything will go up, with no matching wage increase.

In addition we're going to be outside the EU, so all the companies and banks that are based in the UK to get access to the massive EU market are likely to slowly start moving out of the UK as there will be no benefit to them being here. So in addition to 1) and 2).

3) The productivity of the UK will decline.

If based on your experience you can show me how removing ourselves from the EEA, will no result in these 3 negative economic impacts, then I'm all ears. Feel free to be as patronising as you like, I don't mind

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Will some advocate of free movement of all people please explain to me how Luxembourg can become 2nd richest nation on planet with virtually no immigrants yet a part of EU??

no wanting to question your opinion, but how about this for a fact.

I've just done a quick google search and almost half the population of Luxemborg is immigrant!

http://www.wort.lu/en/luxembourg/migration-by-numbers-luxembourg-s-foreign-population-rises-to-46-5524f98f0c88b46a8ce5702b

In the UK, the immigrant % is loads less. So perhaps our economy would be as good as theirs if 50% of the UK was immigrants.

Or were you trying to make another point?

 

[BrendanJ]

These

Of course it's not sustainable, but its not a matter for the EU to deal with, it's a national governments issue. This is something that baffles me about so many Brexiter's positions, they dislike the EU having any sovereignty yet for any problem seem to want the EU to have more powers than they have.

There's a widespread problem with youth employment, our own is three times the adult rate and no-one seems to have an answer or know specifically why the young find it so much more difficult to get employed than adults.
.[/QUOTE
These countries are part of the euro area and are severely constrained in terms of what they can do on there own to get there economies moving.this is the split that is widening and will destroy the EU with or without Brexit
They have a duty to adopt economic and monetary policies to collectively sort out this issue, not just big countries ok and the rest can go shoot.
That's why it is failing and that's why we should get out, lest we get dragged into the same mire, extra budget contributions, bailouts, protectionist business policies no trading agreements with the main global players, whilst they try to protect vested interests, such as French farmers, etc, etc , etc
It's too big, it will never work, the proof is all there to see if you only had the eyes to look