Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Will some advocate of free movement of all people please explain to me how Luxembourg can become 2nd richest nation on planet with virtually no immigrants yet a part of EU??

False premise, they've had more immigration than any other EU country, it's only very recently that it's been reduced to a trickle.

And they become so rich on the back of a huge influx of immigrants from the 1960s onwards, mining their resources among other things. But eventually that tiny country had to ask for immigration restraint since their population had grown to 280% of the start point. Since that was far greater than any other country had suffered, the EU permitted the restriction.

No doubt if our 65 millions grew to over 175 million, the EU would do the same for us.
.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

So Luxembourg have immigration restrictions timed to prevent influx of East Europeans because they are now full of rich French and Portugese ??
They made their money not with mining as claimed but with at best iffy tax laws, which were implemented during Junkhers reign...
So the rich of Europe migrate towards Luxembourg, the poorer towards UK..by the way the had 500 East Europeans settle there last year !!! False premise ? Depends how you look at it..

I quote from quora
"Luxembourgs intellectual and property tax laws have led dozens of corporations( including Skype,Netflix,iTunes,Amazon,ebay, PayPal etc) to set up their HQ's there along with numerous banking institutions."

Basically ripping rest of EU of in unpaid taxes...eg Amazon.

Then they restrict immigration, legally and most don't even know. !!!

 

[flecc]

So Luxembourg have immigration restrictions timed to prevent influx of East Europeans because they are now full of rich French and Portugese ??
They made their money not with mining as claimed but with at best iffy tax laws, which were implemented during Junkhers reign...
So the rich of Europe migrate towards Luxembourg, the poorer towards UK..by the way the had 500 East Europeans settle there last year !!! False premise ? Depends how you look at it..

That's complete bunkum. Some extracts of easily accessed information:

"The discovery of iron mineral deposits around 1870, however, brought a century of wealth to the Grand Duchy, and great numbers of foreign workers arrived to supply labor for the booming iron and mining industries."

"During the 20th century, immigrants contributed to the country's economic and social development."

"The last quarter of the 20th century was a period of almost full employment. Many new jobs were created in all economic sectors, and the percentage and the number of foreigners in the labor market increased. Helping this trend, in part, was a low population growth rate among the native born, and low levels of women participating in the labor market."

"Luxembourgers, who make up one-third of the country's labor force, work mainly in the civil service, leaving most of the the production and innovation sector work to immigrants and commuters from border areas. Indeed, over the past 15 years, commuters from neighboring France, Belgium, and Germany have come to represent approximately 38 percent of the workforce."

So you can see that their wealth came and still comes from immigration, permanent and daily, something I know you hate to acknowledge.
.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

"Note that, for instance, all billing for Amazon and much other internet sales in Europe goes to Luxembourg. After paying for costs and shipping, the profits, minus a cut for administration, go tax free and unseen by others to a Carribean tax haven. Such tax avoidance is legan in Luxembourg, because the great majority of profits is not generated in the country, but in other EU states. A pass through system is not taxed onits total profits.
And other EU governments loose, without quite understanding why. Getting a little bit from a lot of money for services that are helping to hide a lot more money makes you rich"
Quote from Gio Wiederhold. Consultant on tax avoidance. Retired prof. Stamford Uni.

Yes that's the eu for you. And its the leavers being conned ???

And Junkhers was a primary mover in instigating above system. Its corrupt and on a par with Mafia. But trex you believe what you want to believe. Just google Junkhers and why Luxembourg is so rich..its not even a secret..

 

[BrendanJ]

Why not go into details?? Something to hide?not at all part from the obvious sharing personal details on a forum, so your sarcasm is uncalled for

But we'll ignore that. Yes I will

So if you're exporting around Europe, you'll know the benefits that are found within the trading block. Ie no tariffs, cheaper logistics etc etc

No tariffs yes, but who says we will have tariffs in future, you just pick up on most pessimistic view, you don't have to be in the trading block to have a free trade agreement. In worst case we go back to WTO rules and in our business the tariffs are much lower than your bikes, and certainly at the moment are completely discounted by the lower ex rate
Even imports to the uk economy can be mitigated by negotiation, most companies price there goods at local market required prices to be competitive, but were that is not the case, then it's simple don't buy from Europe, we will actually get that freedom once we leave
In any case this is rather theoretical because from my experience the idea that Europe and uk will trade with trade barriers which is equally damaging to both sides is ludicrous beyond words
Cheaper logistics in Europe, don't make me laugh,
Etc etc, can't really answer that, but get your point it must be a huge advantage, yes that is sarcasm

So as I see it, if we leave the EU, and as you also want leave the EEA. We'll be outside, so all our exports into it will be subject to these tariffs (I know bikes, so I know on bikes its 9%) this will make our exports less competitive as all the EU customers will be able to buy from each other and others who have trade agreements with the EU tarriff free.
Not sure your point here, where do your bikes get made. U.K.?
But then frankly it is pointless just talking about your specific case to decide on what's good for the country, there are wide differences in conditions
1) So this will have a negative impact on our exports. Yours maybe, but were do you buy them , China? Priced in $ then ship into Europe directly or do you add some value add? Sorry impossible to answer your case

Then, our imports from the EU (which is a lot) will be subjected to tariffs because we'll be outside the EU, so again on bikes its 9%, plus there will be the VAT headache, and other hassles, so general products will likely jump 10-15% over night.
the overall potential impact has been estimated as 2.5% for all imports from Europe, iF we continue to buy from that source and IF it does not get moped up in other pricing adjustment
And then finally consumers will barely notice it, they also have choice. Just tell me what goods we can only buy from Europe that is not available from elsewhere. Usual scaremongering and is why EU wants an agreement as much as we do

2) So this will have a negative impact on our pockets because everything will go up, with no matching wage increase.
everything will go up, come on, talk sense and we are used to ups and downs all the time , we can cope. Do you know it would not even make the difference for me if I was buying one of your bikes, plus 10% it's a luxury goods for gods sake, but I will of course shop around and I bet I can eliminate that % 10% just talking to your competitors and you know that

In addition we're going to be outside the EU, so all the companies and banks that are based in the UK to get access to the massive EU market are likely to slowly start moving out of the UK as there will be no benefit to them being here. So in addition to 1) and 2).
this another scare story which is getting boring, how do you know, are you a financier as well as bike salesman. The city don't seem so scared from the reports post Brexit

3) The productivity of the UK will decline.
Just another statement without justification, outside the EU we can grow our economy better, we can trade freely with the world, we already have a better ex rate, what more do you need

If based on your experience you can show me how removing ourselves from the EEA, will no result in these 3 negative economic impacts, then I'm all ears. Feel free to be as patronising as you like, I don't mind

Well for what it is worth I've tried to answer your negative views, but frankly if you start from such beliefs I have no illusion of changing your mind. Perhaps it would help you to think out of the bycycle box for a while. Think economy, not just what you buy and sell which is important to you I understand but will hardly prove the case one way or the other

 

[flecc]

"Note that, for instance, all billing for Amazon and much other internet sales in Europe goes to Luxembourg. After paying for costs and shipping, the profits, minus a cut for administration, go tax free and unseen by others to a Carribean tax haven. Such tax avoidance is legan in Luxembourg, because the great majority of profits is not generated in the country, but in other EU states. A pass through system is not taxed onits total profits.
And other EU governments loose, without quite understanding why. Getting a little bit from a lot of money for services that are helping to hide a lot more money makes you rich"
Quote from Gio Wiederhold. Consultant on tax avoidance. Retired prof. Stamford Uni.

Yes that's the eu for you. And its the leavers being conned ???

And Junkhers was a primary mover in instigating above system. Its corrupt and on a par with Mafia. But trex you believe what you want to believe. Just google Junkhers and why Luxembourg is so rich..its not even a secret..

I'm aware of that income, but it's not the fundamental of why they are wealthy as I've pointed out, it's just an addition to well over a century of wealth creation.

They are not alone, are you not aware of all our British Crown Dependancy tax havens, the Isle of Man, the Channel islands, the Virgin Islands?. The wealth moving through those dwarfs the Luxembourg tax haven advantage, and that's nothing to do with the EU.
.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

I'm aware of that income, but it's not the fundamental of why they are wealthy as I've pointed out, it's just an addition to well over a century of wealth creation.

They are not alone, are you not aware of all our British Crown Dependancy tax havens, the Isle of Man, the Channel islands, the Virgin Islands?. The wealth moving through those dwarfs the Luxembourg tax haven advantage, and that's nothing to do with the EU.
.

Take it from me they pale into insignificance at side of Luxembourg. There are loads of countries with qualities you attributed to Luxembourg. Look at its history of individual wealth and when big corporations started arriving there.Being niave to point of delusion to think Luxembourgs wealth is not at cost of rest of EU ( and further)


Since some have questioned posters qualifications to comment..probably time to let spill what I do. Had 25 years lecturing in maths, retrained as a probate lawyer 15 years ago..

Why rest of EU tolerate Luxembourg's behaviour is totally beyond me. It really stinks.

And as normal flec you have a situation pointed out to you and you do your pathetic cut and pasting of BS propoganda telling me I,m talking bunkem. Luxembourg was penniless post both world wars, so WTF has 1870 got to do with it.
Its a form of bullying prevalent ob here. You , Derf ,Trex and now absent OG just spout your BS repeatedly shouting down others with such self righteousness its unbelievable.
Luxembourg is rich at detriment to rest of EU .. Fact..not bunkem. Just ask Amazon, and every fecker else who sells anything on internet.. And yes ofcourse there are other tax havens but I don't want to be part of them either..

And all stayers don't see the BS they take as facts is simply government spin, but a leaver of course is totally conned and taken in by the BS... mmm..

 

[flecc]

Take it from me they pale into insignificance at side of Luxembourg.

Not so, the Virgin Islands are the world's largest tax haven by far.

I agree about the behaviour of Luxembourg, but one can hardly blame them when they are able to operate that way. I'm sure the other EU countries tolerate it because they are not affected by it to any damaging extent. Luxembourg's wealth is immense for such a tiny country, but spread across the union would mean peanuts for the recipients.
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[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Oh so according to you its ok to steal ad long as you don't take much ?
The argument which is bigger tax haven is irrelevant. Fact is your beloved eu allows what was probably its founder member create tax havens with its lax laws to such an extent it becomes second richest country on planet.. And you should do some more research, it is not an insignificant amount. Its wrong no matter the amount and it sums up the EU.
Various places within eu are close to economic oblivion, but its ok for Luxembourg to carry on letting massive corporations operate in those very countries , paying minimal wages and no tax. And you support that ? It stinks. Its wrong and anyone in their right mind would see it and say so, but that would mean you accepting you are wrong, and that the EU is not quite the place you like to give impression of it being.
Just Google European tax avoidance. Not the BS of why Luxembourg is wealthy.

 

[flecc]

WTF has 1870 got to do with it.
Its a form of bullying prevalent ob here. You , Derf ,Trex and now absent OG just spout your BS repeatedly shouting down others with such self righteousness its unbelievable.

I'm not shouting. As I posted, that wealth was created for a century from 1870, taking them well into their founder membership of the EU.

And it's not bullying or self righteous to correct another's false information, viz, thr Virgin island's wealth. Also see my next answer.
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[flecc]

And you should do some more research, it is not an insignificant amount. Its wrong no matter the amount and it sums up the EU.

I've said it's wrong, so why the rant?

And once again you are wrong, the amount involved is insignificant in EU terms. Their 60 billion euros makes the half million Luxembourgers moderately well off, but spread over the EU means a one-off payment of 120 euros each. Hardly going to solve any problems is it?

The Luxembourgers GDP is 80,000 euros per capita, that just 80 euros per capita across the EU.

Now I assure you I have not just looked those up, I had already done my research so your telling me to was unnecessary, perhaps bullying by your standards?
.

 

[trex]

brendanJ - there is a lot more in the single market framework than just duty and tariffs.
The ability to register VAT trading accounts in EU countries, to set up branch office, to rent commercial space, to sue somebody across border, to register trademarks, to sell your services, to supply workers, to buy shares, to hire eu-nationals, to get EU wide insurance cover, to have eu pension pots. Just to name a few. These things are not important to most of us but they are economically important to all of us as a country. It's the same thing with heavy industries: power generation, airbus, trains, railtracks, air traffic etc. We have to integrate our production capacities with our neighbours, because they are also customers. Take Lloyds of London. I've been there and talked to a few people. They are quite clear: nobody wants to work with one to one legal framework. They want us to remain inside the single market. The more you dig into this brexit, the more you realize the immense costs to businesses that have to sell to and work with other EU countries.
Before we quit, we should know the full costs and benefits.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

I've said it's wrong, so why the rant?

And once again you are wrong, the amount involved is insignificant in EU terms. Their 60 billion euros makes the half million Luxembourgers well off, but spread over the EU means a one-off payment of 120 euros each. Hardly going to solve any problems is it?

The Luxembourgers GDP is 80,000 euros per capita, that just 80 euros per capita across the EU.

Now I assure you I have not just looked those up, I had already done my research so your telling me to was unnecessary, perhaps bullying by your standards?
.

Because as usual you assume your stance is the valid correct one and completely mid the point.

The significant amount is not the amount Luxembourg receive, which no matter how you look at it is both not insignificant and on principal plain wrong. The amount actually lost to eu is because of their laws incalculable. They are only there to pay less or no tax, and even on those reduced amounts Luxembourg gets rich. If those companies had to pay the correct levels of tax within the countries they trade in, those countries would obviously get more tax than the commission paid to Luxembourg. Its estimated ( true figures ate unavailable , they are tucked away and protected in Luxembourg) that the teal cost would be in region of 10 times that actually paid. ( ie the cost of setting up HQ's and commision( not tax) on handling.
In other words companies like ebay, skype, Amazon, Facebook, would actual be paying tax like the rest of us..but for some odd reason, you are happy with these companies not paying tax on to origin country but a tiny amount ( by lots of them) to Luxembourg.
The whole set up is designed so rest of EU do not really know the true cost. Its terrible. And you condone it because its the EU, which you support blindly. You,ve been conned but you insist its the leavers that have been.

 

[BrendanJ]

brendanJ - there is a lot more in the single market framework than just duty and tariffs.
The ability to register VAT trading accounts in EU countries, to set up branch office, to rent commercial space, to sue somebody across border, to register trademarks, to sell your services, to supply workers, to buy shares, to hire eu-nationals, to get EU wide insurance cover, to have eu pension pots. Just to name a few. These things are not important to most of us but they are economically important to all of us as a country. Before we quit, we should know the costs and benefits.

Trex,
As I was already asked to declare what I do, and responded, do you not think I already know the details you speak of . But frankly it is all trivia in the daily business we do. No trading arrangement in the world comes without pluses or minuses but don't get lost in details.
Your request to know the costs before we quit, is quite naive considering the many scenarios and options to be considered and negotiated
And never forget, this is simply not about just economics but definately about politics with a big P and control and self determinancy
Do you want to give up yet to globalisation, and the new order, read control by the wrotten and corrupt banking elites.

 

[trex]

Globalisation is unavoidable. Can you imagine a world without the internet? Self determination without the ability to pool our decision power with others is meaningless. Can you imagine a world without international organisations and where we are constantly fearful to enter into conflict with our neighbours? Take our money, what is it worth if we can't exchange it for another currency?
your reasoning is based on your company. The cost to the country is already considerable even when we are years away from the real brexit.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

And you ask why the rant.
You ,OG Derf and Trex are just so self righteous. You tell me " false premise" and " talking bunkem" when in reality what I,m saying is fact. Yes you wont find it in Google( they operate from Luxembourg) . You think facts are found through google and written in blue. No that's the BS you buy into. The facts are Luxembourg takes rest of EU to cleaners, aided by Junkhers. They took 500 east Europeans last year. You nor I could afford to live there.
They are almost as rich as Oil rich nations because of their tax avoidance laws. Fact.

 

[oldgroaner]

Hi Flud, still ranting? heres a bit of good news you might like
https://next.ft.com/content/c145841d-15da-3f42-9de7-d9beda5e353a
"
‘Collapse’ in business confidence after Brexit – Credit Suisse"
"Corporate sentiment in the UK has “deteriorated out of all recognition” in the wake of the Brexit vote, according to a special edition of Swiss bank Credit Suisse’s corporate spending survey."
"
In contrast, the report is much more positive on the rest of Europe:

there is not a reason to significantly change views on growth in Continental Europe or the stocks exposed to it. In the UK, you are displaying an immense act of faith that valuations discount the risks that undeniably exist."
And also this as you would say "Scaremongering" (shouldn't be allowed!)
https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2016/jul/13/jd-wetherspoons-blasts-brexit-pound-stock-markets-theresa-may-business-live

All nonsense of course! You know best as always. I believe every word you say

 

[soundwave]

when the usa crashes and burns it will not make 1 difference 1 way or the other the hole planet will be fooked.

buy as much gold as you can asap.

 

[BrendanJ]

Globalisation is unavoidable. Can you imagine a world without the internet? Self determination without the ability to pool our decision power with others is meaningless. Can you imagine a world without international organisations and where we are constantly fearful to enter into conflict with our neighbours? Take our money, what is it worth if we can't exchange it for another currency?
your reasoning is based on your company. The cost to the country is already considerable even when we are years away from the real brexit.

Trex, let me state only this
The world is a complicated place, much more so than most have any chance in understanding, so we all have to take a stance
You either give everything over to the unelected and often hidden controllers who don't give one fig for the little people, or you stand up for democracy and a process that can deliver for the people as a whole
I am not in principle against the EU you wil be surprised to hear, but in practice I am vociferously opposed because of the self evident corruption and manipulation of the elites for there own benefits
It is wrong, there is no other way to describe it

 

[oldgroaner]

when the usa crashes and burns it will not make 1 difference 1 way or the other the hole planet will be fooked.

buy as much gold as you can asap.

Dont worry, just give the Vulcan salute and repeat after me
"The May be with you"
be filled with optimism , you must.