Brexit, for once some facts.

[tillson]

Time for fun spot: this from the Independent Front Page this morning

• LABOUR LEADERSHIP

Live: More Tories launch leadership bids – latest updates

• Who are the candidates who could take on Jeremy Corbyn?
• Jeremy Corbyn says he won't resign and 'betray' Labour members

It's all a Plot he cried ("Cackling madly as the men in white coats drag him away")

Anyone fancy a job as a sub editor, with the Independent? there will surely be a vacancy later today.
Oh, heck, perhaps is is actually true????

After that I'm not a sad little old man any more, there are more people around just as mad as I am!

I don't really think you are a sad little old man. You are just giving your opinion.

 

[oldgroaner]

More news in the Independent;
Rupert Murdoch has declared the Brexit result of the EU referendum “wonderful” and compared the decision to withdraw from the European Union as like “a prison break….we’re out”.
Murdoch, 85, also had a warning for leadership contender Boris Johnson in the wake of anger after Nigel Farage disowned a Leave pledge spend £350 million of European Union cash on the NHS after Brexit. “If he backtracks on serious things there could be another bloody revolt.”
......................
This man is making dangerous remarks. What and when was the previous "Bloody revolt" he is talking about?
Imagine how this will read to the hot heads among the population on both sides.

 

[oldgroaner]

I don't really think you are a sad little old man. You are just giving your opinion.

Did the headline mix up make you smile too?

 

[BrendanJ]

More news in the Independent;
Rupert Murdoch has declared the Brexit result of the EU referendum “wonderful” and compared the decision to withdraw from the European Union as like “a prison break….we’re out”.
Murdoch, 85, also had a warning for leadership contender Boris Johnson in the wake of anger after Nigel Farage disowned a Leave pledge spend £350 million of European Union cash on the NHS after Brexit. “If he backtracks on serious things there could be another bloody revolt.”
......................
This man is making dangerous remarks. What and when was the previous "Bloody revolt" he is talking about?
Imagine how this will read to the hot heads among the population on both sides.

It would appear that more and more people are waking up to the positive side of Brexit from politicians starting to rally to the cause, newspaper reports, business and associations and even a bounce back on the currency and stock markets. Just as expected really as the fear mongering was really overdone and if truth be known is why so many people gave a two fingered salute to the establishment
Regarding going forward don't forget the timescales, at least 2 years, not much is going to happen, ( except usual talk and speculation) so considerable time for policy to be formulated and for everyone to adjust to new reality
The imagration issue however is interesting,
In theory we cannot done anything for 2 years so we could have another 600k coming in during that time. That's say 300k more houses needed, let's say 100k school places, 600k registering for GP's
This argument will run and run and not in a positive way I'm afraid
Meanwhile money will have to be found to fund services and we are still paying in to EU during this period
Challenging and nothing to do with Brexit decision , just to do with EU rules
And that's even before we start considering impacts of refugee crisis which has been off the headlines for a while, ( it will be back shortly)

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

What iis annoying throughout all this is blatant sensationalism on media's part. Take for example last nights graphic of ftse. Zoomed right in, suppressed zero (no origin of graph) and showed value falling off cliff.
Step back however and put it in perspective and its not a cliff at all. You,d think in these times media would strive to show real situation, good or bad, rather than alarmist reactionary slant.
Seems project fear has given way to project slur..!!!
Why oh why cant both sides treat us all as intelligent folk.. The rhetoric, scare mongering and slurs have done economic damage and driven wedges between people.
I honestly believe the exaggerations, rhetoric, hysteria and slurs have done way more damage than brexit, but brexit takes blame and folk come back with " I told you so" when its their own attitudes causing problem.( Think government has been more guilty of this)

 

[oldgroaner]

It would appear that more and more people are waking up to the positive side of Brexit from politicians starting to rally to the cause, newspaper reports, business and associations and even a bounce back on the currency and stock markets. Just as expected really as the fear mongering was really overdone and if truth be known is why so many people gave a two fingered salute to the establishment
Regarding going forward don't forget the timescales, at least 2 years, not much is going to happen, ( except usual talk and speculation) so considerable time for policy to be formulated and for everyone to adjust to new reality
The imagration issue however is interesting,
In theory we cannot done anything for 2 years so we could have another 600k coming in during that time. That's say 300k more houses needed, let's say 100k school places, 600k registering for GP's
This argument will run and run and not in a positive way I'm afraid
Meanwhile money will have to be found to fund services and we are still paying in to EU during this period
Challenging and nothing to do with Brexit decision , just to do with EU rules
And that's even before we start considering impacts of refugee crisis which has been off the headlines for a while, ( it will be back shortly)

Murdoch isn't "Waking up to the positive side" merely gloating about the effect his influence has had on the campaign, and as yet there isn't even the slightest glimmer of anything positive in sight is there?

 

[oldgroaner]

What iis annoying throughout all this is blatant sensationalism on media's part. Take for example last nights graphic of ftse. Zoomed right in, suppressed zero (no origin of graph) and showed value falling off cliff.
Step back however and put it in perspective and its not a cliff at all. You,d think in these times media would strive to show real situation, good or bad, rather than alarmist reactionary slant.
Seems project fear has given way to project slur..!!!
Why oh why cant both sides treat us all as intelligent folk.. The rhetoric, scare mongering and slurs have done economic damage and driven wedges between people.

Agreed but where we differ you believe this was necessary and I don't. Still, that's how it goes, and events will prove one of us right, or even perhaps in some odd way, both, or neither.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Agreed but where we differ you believe this was necessary and I don't. Still, that's how it goes, and events will prove one of us right, or even perhaps in some odd way, both, or neither.

Not sure I deemed it necessary OG. I was asked to take part in a referendum, researched it in ,as I saw it correct places, and came to my conclusion.
I do think if it does not happen it proves eu is no longer democratic, more a totalitarian state. We,ll see. Time will tell.
What exercise is proving is how divided country is , what measures people will go get their own way and that 95% ( made up stat) of politicians are self serving.
The blatant scaremongering probably pushed me into leave camp, along with know it all celebrities ((Mat Damon,Eddie Izzard) jumping on band wagon spouting.
Now we have kids protesting against democracy when I,d bet half of them (another made up stat) didnt even vote. They just buy into the great big propoganda machine called our government. Sad really.

One thing I see as indicative of it all is eu,s attempts to direct situation now. Merkel,Junkers and co trying to set time scale and even now dictating to us.
By the way, French are likely to be calling a referendum, along with quite a few others. Mad as a fish Farage was laughed at and jeered yesterday, but how many of those jeering were secretly suspecting their own countries wanting same.??

 

[BrendanJ]

Murdoch isn't "Waking up to the positive side" merely gloating about the effect his influence has had on the campaign, and as yet there isn't even the slightest glimmer of anything positive in sight is there?

I suppose the positive can only be seen as "not much will change at first" of course after the initial shock waves and of course the damage done by the campaign which the government must shoulder the main blame for.
The benefits finally have to wait at least 2 years to even begin which I think is a problem, unless we arbitrarily start dismantalling our agreements, such as implement new imagration laws with immediate effect
Or refuse to implement new laws by Europe, or simply start new trading arrangements with rest of world
High stakes game but only way to expedite benefits
But one benefit I think we will start to se soon is a radically different direction for Europe, the project is damaged, they have no choice if EU is to survive.
It should start with getting rid of Junker, he is showing all the signs of going mad!

 

[oldgroaner]

Not sure I deemed it necessary OG. I was asked to take part in a referendum, researched it in ,as I saw it correct places, and came to my conclusion.
I do think if it does not happen it proves eu is no longer democratic, more a totalitarian state. We,ll see. Time will tell.

I take it it you are referring to them giving way on free movement?
Sadly i really can't see them doing that, even though I have nothing against it if it is merely having control, the problem is, even if this achieved, how to sell it to an angry public who feel cheated?

 

[oldgroaner]

I suppose the positive can only be seen as "not much will change at first" of course after the initial shock waves and of course the damage done by the campaign which the government must shoulder the main blame for.
The benefits finally have to wait at least 2 years to even begin which I think is a problem, unless we arbitrarily start dismantalling our agreements, such as implement new imagration laws with immediate effect
Or refuse to implement new laws by Europe, or simply start new trading arrangements with rest of world
High stakes game but only way to expedite benefits
But one benefit I think we will start to se soon is a radically different direction for Europe, the project is damaged, they have no choice if EU is to survive.
It should start with getting rid of Junker, he is showing all the signs of going mad!

Assuming they have no choice but to change, is taking a lot for granted, they may well feel their interests, like Cameron thinks ours are, best served by "toughing it out" as any sign of weakness will be exploited by the other "Farages" lurking in the dark places of the EU parliament.
And then of course comes the matter of how many who voted for Brexit hoping for a ban on immigration will be satisfied with a sensible compromise approach to the problem?
Voices are already being raised by a rabble who want to repatriate immigrants.
And last but not least, why have we gone from being in a stable situation to one where we are playing for high stakes? What on Earth for?

 

[BrendanJ]

I take it it you are referring to them giving way on free movement?
Sadly i really can't see them doing that, even though I have nothing against it if it is merely having control, the problem is, even if this achieved, how to sell it to an angry public who feel cheated?

To me free movement of people rightly belongs within a European State, not a trade area, so this was clearly their vision which is why they try to force it on everyone, then as now is a work in progress if you still believe this is their direction then it should apply to the Euro area only, thus paving the way for countries to join the EU such as turkey without needing to immediately change currency or being part of the free movement area
I think this would suit many countries and gives a place for Nordic countries, even Greece and anyone that cannot live with the economic policies that Germany dictate for the euro area
This is what I believe is meant by 2 Tier Europe, A compromise which the commission would not accept in its superstate dream but will gain traction from now and will probably even overshadow Brexit. This solution would suit us perfectly
No Euro
Outside Schengen
Free trade
No free movement
Self governance accept on agreed cooperation areas such as environmental
This is not a dream, but I believe a natural direction of travel over the next few years

 

[BrendanJ]

Assuming they have no choice but to change, is taking a lot for granted, they may well feel their interests, like Cameron thinks ours are, best served by "toughing it out" as any sign of weakness will be exploited by the other "Farages" lurking in the dark places of the EU parliament.
And then of course comes the matter of how many who voted for Brexit hoping for a ban on immigration will be satisfied with a sensible compromise approach to the problem?
Voices are already being raised by a rabble who want to repatriate immigrants.
And last but not least, why have we gone from being in a stable situation to one where we are playing for high stakes? What on Earth for?

The rabble that you mention will not be erased by toughing it out or being more intransigent or simply sticking to the failed vision, it will only increase there voice and power, we have to change direction and listen to the needs of the citizens, not the establishment who knows best and ignores their will
This is the lesson of Brexit

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

One of biggest issues in remain argument was claim banks would have to relocate to maintain business in EU. That's complete rubbish.
To trade in EU bank has to have an office in EU country...fine.
If it hasn't it applies for a " banking passport". If it can be shown ( under article 47 eu banking laws) the origin country has banking standards ( ethically I,d assume) to those within eu a passport must be issued..
As for Fitch dtopping out credit rating. Again utter BS. Credit rating companies ( there is another but name escapes me) have been totally discredited since 08, when they,d given highest ratings to blatantly bankrupt banks. Since then the credit rating means nothing. The rating is meaningless and has had, or will have,no effect.. Its another propoganda tool.
And just to reinforce how a positive attitude to Brexit has an effect. Which brokerage company has posted biggest rises this week ? Hargreaves Lansdown.!

And RR and Jaguar/ LandRover have both said today...We are currently more competitive in States. RR ( doing a bit of a u turn) have estimated increase in profits estimated at 40kk, without increase in sales,which they are expecting given their higher competiveness'. So not all doom and gloom . Give it time.

 

[oldgroaner]

The rabble that you mention will not be erased by toughing it out or being more intransigent or simply sticking to the failed vision, it will only increase there voice and power, we have to change direction and listen to the needs of the citizens, not the establishment who knows best and ignores their will
This is the lesson of Brexit

The EU vision hasn't failed, our perception of it was simply undermined by lying politicians for their own purposes, and using mob rule to strong arm parliament which really doesn't want to go in that direction means quite simply Parliament no longer rules in the UK
And all because of What exactly?
Cameron gave an undertaking which he had no right to do that HE and therefore Parliament would abide by a narrow decision on a Referendum (which is in law only advisory not legally binding) would be taken as the way the country would go.
So now proper elections and parliamentary procedure are out of the window.
All you have to do is buy the Press and a few politicians and print lies year on year till they take on the appearance of truth.
The ask the opinion of a public that has had no access to the truth to decide the future of the nation.
Parliamentary Democracy is dead and the mob rules is the lesson of Brexit.
It's no good protesting had the vote gone the other way I wouldn't be saying that, as in that case we would have had no change in a situation where we had some influence on events in Europe.
Now you have placed us at their mercy, and we can be held to ransom by any foreign manufacturer based in this country, as their loss would be an economic death blow.

 

[mike killay]

Mob rule?
Would you have said that if the vote had gone the other way?
I think not.

 

[oldgroaner]

One of biggest issues in remain argument was claim banks would have to relocate to maintain business in EU. That's complete rubbish.
To trade in EU bank has to have an office in EU country...fine.
If it hasn't it applies for a " banking passport". If it can be shown ( under article 47 eu banking laws) the origin country has banking standards ( ethically I,d assume) to those within eu a passport must be issued..
As for Fitch dtopping out credit rating. Again utter BS. Credit rating companies ( there is another but name escapes me) have been totally discredited since 08, when they,d given highest ratings to blatantly bankrupt banks. Since then the credit rating means nothing. The rating is meaningless and has had, or will have,no effect.. Its another propoganda tool.
And just to reinforce how a positive attitude to Brexit has an effect. Which brokerage company has posted biggest rises this week ? Hargreaves Lansdown.!

And RR and Jaguar/ LandRover have both said today...We are currently more competitive in States. RR ( doing a bit of a u turn) have estimated increase in profits estimated at 40kk, without increase in sales,which they are expecting given their higher competiveness'. So not all doom and gloom . Give it time.

Rolls Royce, would that be the Chinese Growing part of the group or the UK that will be run down?
And the same goes for Land rover and Jaguar
They have no worries, first sign of bother, just close down here and continue with China.
No doubt they are quite happy

 

[oldgroaner]

Mob rule?
Would you have said that if the vote had gone the other way?
I think not.

Think for a moment if it had gone the other way there would have been no change? so your idea is nonsense
How can nothing changing mean mob rule?
The overwhelming mass of the people made no demand for change would be mob rule.
Tell me how that works

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Ofcourse there is change OG, its been going on years and would have continued. The slow devolvement of power from Westminster to Brussels. And Mike is right, the mob rule is showing to be the young led to believe they are disenfranchised,fresh from Glastonbury, majority of whom did not vote.( motivated by singers, abusing one who spoke out for Brexit)
If we stay its a mockery of democracy. Your heroine, Merkel, has said so. Its carved in EU stone. Rights of the people, its the backbone of EU democracy ??
Its all got rather catch 22, if we stay, we will have broken some eu human rights jargon. You really want uk to be undemocratic and ignore the referendum?

And why ???

Are the 52% of voters too old ? Not educated enough? Too gullible? Racist ? Badly informed ? Foreign ? (all these have been levelled at leavers)
What can possibly justify changing status of referendum , ignoring it or having a second...and third....and...
We,ve had a vote. Stay lost. We leave.

I saw the propoganda on both sides during campaign. You are missing it now OG. The slur campaign against leavers is in top gear. Its appalling. Don't buy into it.

 

[derf]

It would appear that more and more people are waking up to the positive side of Brexit from politicians starting to rally to the cause, newspaper reports, business and associations and even a bounce back on the currency and stock markets. Just as expected really as the fear mongering was really overdone and if truth be known is why so many people gave a two fingered salute to the establishment
Regarding going forward don't forget the timescales, at least 2 years, not much is going to happen, ( except usual talk and speculation) so considerable time for policy to be formulated and for everyone to adjust to new reality
The imagration issue however is interesting,
In theory we cannot done anything for 2 years so we could have another 600k coming in during that time. That's say 300k more houses needed, let's say 100k school places, 600k registering for GP's
This argument will run and run and not in a positive way I'm afraid
Meanwhile money will have to be found to fund services and we are still paying in to EU during this period
Challenging and nothing to do with Brexit decision , just to do with EU rules
And that's even before we start considering impacts of refugee crisis which has been off the headlines for a while, ( it will be back shortly)

i wouldnt dream of criticisnig all of the astute market analysis on this forum, but if you lot foudn time to glance at this
https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/eur/5102-pound-to-euro-forecast-399844
you may realise that brief fluctuations mean nothing