Brexit, for once some facts.

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Chechable and provable facts my arse. You,ve quoted subjective opininions and then assumed others haven't got IQ to understand your distorted reasoning.
If all this could be answered by these so called facts we wouldn't even be having referendum.
I,ve worked in and eith statistics for last 40 years and know full well figures are invariably chosen to prove a certain point. They can be made to say what you want them to..but like I said 3 weeks ago you seem to know mire than Mark Carney, my accountant, my bank manager, my wife ( an extremely high ranking civil servant, ( regional manager) who all know what they are talking about , but obviously less than OG and Flecc.
To really know what really will happen you need a crystal ball. I,m not repeating my reasons again. Just read posts from 3 weeks ago.
Go live in EU for 10 years, speak to folk in Berlin, Athens, and Greece and then decide.

OG's reasoning is questionable at best.. He thinks Freddy Truman is your typical Yorkshire man. Just like Arthur Daley is your typical Londoner. Your typical Yorkshire man nowadays is probably called Ahmed..and place is fine for it.
And folk from Yorkshire can listen just as good as anyone can,contrary to OG,s warped opinion.And Freddy Truman was never a good example of a Yorkshire man, even 30 years ago. At best he was a caricature...a brussen one at that.
And BTW that last link is laughable. Its plain rubbish.I hope you have based your opinions on more than that OG !!! A wasted vote otherwise.

 

[oldgroaner]

Checkable and provable facts my arse. You,ve quoted subjective opininions and then assumed others haven't got IQ to understand your distorted reasoning.
If all this could be answered by these so called facts we wouldn't even be having referendum.
I,ve worked in and eith statistics for last 40 years and know full well figures are invariably chosen to prove a certain point. They can be made to say what you want them to..but like I said 3 weeks ago you seem to know mire than Mark Carney, my accountant, my bank manager, my wife ( an extremely high ranking civil servant, ( regional manager) who all know what they are talking about , but obviously less than OG and Flecc.
To really know what really will happen you need a crystal ball. I,m not repeating my reasons again. Just read posts from 3 weeks ago.
Go live in EU for 10 years, speak to folk in Berlin, Athens, and Greece and then decide.

I really shouldn't get too excited if I was you , after all if you read my posts you would have seen I forecast a Brexit win with a large majority.
Despite that you have allowed yourself to get into an unnecessarily angry state.
What the heck for? are you disputing the fact that I expect Brexit to win?
If not, what is your problem?
Do you know why I expect that?
Because despite every effort there are more fans of Brexit than for Remain
Live Long an Prosper (for as long as it lasts) with my best wishes.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG's reasoning is questionable at best.. He thinks Freddy Truman is your typical Yorkshire man. Just like Arthur Daley is your typical Londoner. Your typical Yorkshire man nowadays is probably called Ahmed..and place is fine for it.
And folk from Yorkshire can listen just as good as anyone can,contrary to OG,s warped opinion.And Freddy Truman was never a good example of a Yorkshire man, even 30 years ago. At best he was a caricature...a brussen one at that.
http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/I hope you have based your opinions on more than that OG !!! A wasted vote otherwise.[/QUOTE
Jumping to conclusions again? unable to recognise a joke when you read one and try to spin it into something else? no wonder Brexit attracts you
And reasoning is of course not something you can be bothered with, hence your animosity, as you really cant have your ideas challenged and keep your head can you?
That last link is Rubbish?
"http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/
only to someone limited in the thinking department.
You have been lied to for so long over the EU that you cant bring yourself to admit you fell for it as that would be to admit you've been fooled.
Never mind! the Brexit win will cheer you up on Friday

 

[gray198]

The fault of the tories is failing to adjust the size and resources of the NHS to match the population.

When the NHS was formed, we had a population of 48 millions. It's risen since to one third bigger at over 64 millions. Over the years the NHS sometimes expanded to suit, but it needs to keep pace so needs the money to do that.

After all, the majority of the immigrants are working and paying taxes and national insurance, so the money's there.
.

Not just the tories. I seem to recall labour being in power for thirteen years and it seemed to go downhill then. More concerned with box ticking and targets

 

[gray198]

they are real - but 350,000 in 65 millions is 0.53%.
It's not like squeezing 100,000 into 90,000 place Wembley stadium.

Non EU immigration has always been higher than EU. We have had huge numbers of immigrants before.

That's just one year. How many are there since Blair and his rag tag government had the brilliant idea to rub our noses in diversity, without consulting us of course. It doesn't matter how you try and explain it. It's a fact that a lot more people are using the NHS than in 2004. Maybe if we used some of the twelve billion foreign aid and cancelled hs2 we could afford to expand it

 

[gray198]

Checkable and provable facts my arse. You,ve quoted subjective opininions and then assumed others haven't got IQ to understand your distorted reasoning.
If all this could be answered by these so called facts we wouldn't even be having referendum.
I,ve worked in and eith statistics for last 40 years and know full well figures are invariably chosen to prove a certain point. They can be made to say what you want them to..but like I said 3 weeks ago you seem to know mire than Mark Carney, my accountant, my bank manager, my wife ( an extremely high ranking civil servant, ( regional manager) who all know what they are talking about , but obviously less than OG and Flecc.
To really know what really will happen you need a crystal ball. I,m not repeating my reasons again. Just read posts from 3 weeks ago.
Go live in EU for 10 years, speak to folk in Berlin, Athens, and Greece and then decide.

Lies damn lies and statistics

 

[oldtom]

Go live in EU for 10 years, speak to folk in Berlin, Athens, and Greece and then decide.

Presumably you have spent ten years living in those places you mention so how was it? What did you learn there?

I share my time between two countries and my neighbours abroad are from all over the European continent. We all get along famously and enjoy the ease with which we can travel through the whole continent while enjoying the many benefits brought about by economies of scale, thanks to the EU.

My neighbours just think we Brits are mad to consider detaching our country from the EU. They change their government when they get p'd off with things but the EU doesn't get blamed for the stupidity of national politicians.

Perhaps my personal experience differs from yours - Was it five years in Germany and five in Greece or did you have different experiences between Athens and the remainder of Greece?

Congratulations, by the way! Your post to which I'm replying is the 1,000th in this thread.

Tom

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

I really shouldn't get too excited if I was you , after all if you read my posts you would have seen I forecast a Brexit win with a large majority.
Despite that you have allowed yourself to get into an unnecessarily angry state.
What the heck for? are you disputing the fact that I expect Brexit to win?
If not, what is your problem?
Do you know why I expect that?
Because despite every effort there are more fans of Brexit than for Remain
Live Long an Prosper (for as long as it lasts) with my best wishes.

I am neither excited or angry but have taken exception to your self righteous stance. I believe remain will win and probably because our government have managed to brainwash voters into believing propoganda is fact. The risk of staying outweigh those of leaving by a considerable margin. Go tour Berlin, Paris,Athens, Calais and make an informed decision rather than believing the hogwash the internet feeds you.
The eu is a failing organisation. We will be better out now.Fact. ( there is scant regard for using word correctly on here)

 

[D8ve]

Oh god when will it end. Please stop.

Ah after tomorrow

 

[oldtom]

There's a lovely, descriptive piece here which ridicules Gove particularly but highlights much of why the 'Brexit' campaign is based on the fantasies of people with no grasp of history or how the progress of mankind is achieved:

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/michael-goves-appeals-to-anti.html

Tom

 

[flecc]

Not just the tories. I seem to recall labour being in power for thirteen years and it seemed to go downhill then. More concerned with box ticking and targets

Yes, I fully agree. It's why I remarked the NHS "sometimes" expanded with the population increase. It's an intrinsic problem with our parliamentary system that when re-election is due, costs can be avoided to be left to a following government on the offchance that the other lot will be in power.

Then that following government can repeatedly blame the last administration in preference to correcting the problem. This suits both sides.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

You were responding to my statement that UKIP is the third most popular political party in the UK, so you did in fact make that link. As I suspected, no evidence to support has been forthcoming.

I think you might be getting your knickers in a twist... what are you asking me for evidence of?

All i did was suggest that just because something is popular doesn't make it right. If you want another example, how about homophobia.... its pretty common still... doesn't mean its right, socially acceptable or something a modern society should be supporting.

 

[oldtom]

Oh god when will it end. Please stop.

Ah after tomorrow

Err......not necessarily Dave!

Apparently, the government has no legal obligation to do anything as a result of the referendum. Clearly, should they lose, then certain things will inevitably happen but they are free, for example, should they believe it appropriate, to raise the matter as a parliamentary debate and allow MPs to vote on the matter, having listened to the will of the people.

I have tried to discover if that is factually correct but I can't find an answer. Presumably, the Attorney General will know the definitive answer.

Tom

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Presumably you have spent ten years living in those places you mention so how was it? What did you learn there?

I share my time between two countries and my neighbours abroad are from all over the European continent. We all get along famously and enjoy the ease with which we can travel through the whole continent while enjoying the many benefits brought about by economies of scale, thanks to the EU.

My neighbours just think we Brits are mad to consider detaching our country from the EU. They change their government when they get p'd off with things but the EU doesn't get blamed for the stupidity of national politicians.

Perhaps my personal experience differs from yours - Was it five years in Germany and five in Greece or did you have different experiences between Athens and the remainder of Greece?

Congratulations, by the way! Your post to which I'm replying is the 1,000th in this thread.

Tom

Spent a couple of years on Kos and then 8 years in Perpignan. Mixture of work and leisure has taken all over eu until 3 years ago, when grand kids arrived.Generally found more poverty and serious social problems than in UK. ( Robbed at knifepoint in Barcelona, then again on motorway in North Spain. Had car emptied in South France.!But other than that people really friendly. ( especially in Perpignan)
Organising anything is a nightmare, selling houses even worse. Immobiliers not trustworthy and notaires nearly as bad. Local government corrupt.( folk buying building permission, our Marie sent to prison for taking bribes)
Lots of beggers. Health care difficult, great if private but very expensive. EU is not the place its made out to be.( in my experience, but not travelled to northern eu, apart from Berlin, which now has zero German culture.. Went as a kid and then again 5 years ago. No comparison. Berlin is a memory now.
Dont want UK to go same.

 

[BrendanJ]

I think you might be getting your knickers in a twist... what are you asking me for evidence of?

All i did was suggest that just because something is popular doesn't make it right. If you want another example, how about homophobia.... its pretty common still... doesn't mean its right, socially acceptable or something a modern society should be supporting.

Oh dear, I was hoping this thread would be finished tomorrow, but I now realise it could go anywhere and forever!!

 

[BrendanJ]

Err......not necessarily Dave!

Apparently, the government has no legal obligation to do anything as a result of the referendum. Clearly, should they lose, then certain things will inevitably happen but they are free, for example, should they believe it appropriate, to raise the matter as a parliamentary debate and allow MPs to vote on the matter, having listened to the will of the people.

I have tried to discover if that is factually correct but I can't find an answer. Presumably, the Attorney General will know the definitive answer.

Tom

You mean OG

 

[oldgroaner]

I am neither excited or angry but have taken exception to your self righteous stance. I believe remain will win and probably because our government have managed to brainwash voters into believing propoganda is fact. The risk of staying outweigh those of leaving by a considerable margin. Go tour Berlin, Paris,Athens, Calais and make an informed decision rather than believing the hogwash the internet feeds you.
The eu is a failing organisation. We will be better out now.Fact. ( there is scant regard for using word correctly on here)

Oddly I don't take exception to your stance,as from your point of view is makes sense even though it suffers even more from being self righteous than mine,
how ironic that you, a person keen on Brexit expects a Remain win,
Yet I who regards the idea as stupid expects a Brexit win.
Feeding hogwash to the public in your opinion is done by the internet, whereas I see it as a long term Government strategy.

 

[oldgroaner]

You mean OG

Brendan, you are having fun aren't you?
If you are right I had better to be ready to take the call and decide the fate of the nation!
Should I use your logic and toss a coin to help me decide?

 

[oldgroaner]

Spent a couple of years on Kos and then 8 years in Perpignan. Mixture of work and leisure has taken all over eu until 3 years ago, when grand kids arrived.Generally found more poverty and serious social problems than in UK. ( Robbed at knifepoint in Barcelona, then again on motorway in North Spain. Had car emptied in South France.!But other than that people really friendly. ( especially in Perpignan)
Organising anything is a nightmare, selling houses even worse. Immobiliers not trustworthy and notaires nearly as bad. Local government corrupt.( folk buying building permission, our Marie sent to prison for taking bribes)
Lots of beggers. Health care difficult, great if private but very expensive. EU is not the place its made out to be.( in my experience, but not travelled to northern eu, apart from Berlin, which now has zero German culture.. Went as a kid and then again 5 years ago. No comparison. Berlin is a memory now.
Dont want UK to go same.

Heres news for you we have plenty of beggars in the UK too, and who is to blame for that?
You seem to have forgotten that the EU doesn't govern individual countries and what happens inside them, (contrary to Brexit propaganda) local conditions are the result of the actions of their own governments ,
Rather negates your comments doesn't it? you are blaming the EU for local Government failures as if they control them.
Typical Brexit propaganda.

 

[trex]

That's just one year. How many are there since Blair and his rag tag government had the brilliant idea to rub our noses in diversity, without consulting us of course. It doesn't matter how you try and explain it. It's a fact that a lot more people are using the NHS than in 2004. Maybe if we used some of the twelve billion foreign aid and cancelled hs2 we could afford to expand it

the previous peak was in 2005, 320,000 was the net figure compared to 330,000 last year. Since 2005, immigration remains high, at over 180,000 (2012) in any year. That's not the problem for the NHS though.
The real problem is people now live longer. About 12 millions are over 65 (that includes me). This number grows about 300,000 a year. They need to be looked after, so immigration cannot be easily reduced if at all.