Brexit, for once some facts.

[BrendanJ]

I notice a strange dynamic in this whole campaign.

The politicians and the establishment are mainly for In.
The people are absolutely torn down the middle
The press is largely for out

My theory for what is worth is the people no longer trust the politicians, and have recognised the sound bites and hidden agendas and lies frankly
They on the whole rightly or wrongly trust the press, which more often than not contain reasoned arguments
The press probably more so than most recognise the politics of bullshit and take it on themselves to defend truth as they see it and act as counter balance to the establishment
Somewhere in between is the truth, which God bless them the public have found in a 50/50 split
Too close to call

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Some more fact checking for you fact fans

This serious attempt to fact-check every claim on both sides is a good effort:

https://medium.com/im-trying-to-fact-check-brexit

If you don't read it all, at least read the conclusion:

"At every single turn, I found that the Leave campaign’s arguments were founded on lies. Sorry, it’s as simple as that. I wish it wasn’t."

https://medium.com/im-trying-to-fact-check-brexit/fact-checking-brexit-the-conclusion-c1f56ba4cb70#.a6hzznkeu

and I also read this one of the of the cycle trade only forums. Made me smile a little bit.

"Young people of today won't struggle with the concept of Free Movement of People in the way that we do now. Instead, they will grow up in a borderless Europe and become true Pan-european citicens where studying and working etc in different countries will be natural parts of their lives. Not only will they be better in dealing with the difficult issues of immigration, but also turn it into something positive in ways that we today cannot comprehend."

 

[flecc]

So, what level of voter turnout do you

A) expect
B) be satisfied with (,ie the result whichever way is representative....well, enough)

A) over 60%

B) I'll be satisfied with any proportion voting, so long as the margin was clear. But, if there is a very narrow margin to leave and a very low proportion of the electorate took part, it could become questionable whether the government could or would initiate leaving the EU.
.
For example, should we leave if the margin for leave is about 46,000 votes and only about 50% of the electorate voted?

46,000 votes is just 0.1% of the electorate.
.

 

[oldtom]

Farage and his party enjoys more support from the electorate than the Lib Dems and SNP put together. UKIP is the third most popular party in UK politics.

So, that will be one UKIP member in the HofC then.

Tom

 

[flecc]

"Young people of today won't struggle with the concept of Free Movement of People in the way that we do now. Instead, they will grow up in a borderless Europe and become true Pan-european citicens where studying and working etc in different countries will be natural parts of their lives. Not only will they be better in dealing with the difficult issues of immigration, but also turn it into something positive in ways that we today cannot comprehend."

I'm pleased to say that this state already exists in London, and for almost all ages, not just the young. For us immigration is a wholly positive thing.
.

 

[tillson]

and this is something we as a country should be deeply ashamed of!

I'm sure the Nazi party was popular in Germany at one point. Being popular doesn't mean you are either right, or acceptable.

Where did the jump from UKIP to the Nazi party come from? You can not and will not provide any evidence to justify that link because none exists. It is a preposterous statement and it beautifully illustrates your flawed judgement. I suggest that same unsound judgement has lead you to believe that the uk's future is best served within the EU.

 

[oldgroaner]

Are you saying that the 300,00 plus People who arrived this last year are not real and will therefore not use the NHS or the doctors etc. Of course they won't . It's all the fault of the tories

If you bothered to read the strict terms of the EU regulations you might be surprised
"
National Immigration Rules

Each EU country alone decides:

• The total number of migrants that can be admitted to the country to look for work;
• All final decisions on migrant applications;
• Rules on long-term visas – stays for periods longer than three months; and
• Conditions to obtain residence and work permits when no EU-wide rules have been adopted.

source http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/who-does-what/more-information/explaining-the-rules-why-are-there-eu-rules-and-national-rules_en

But of course that would be a FACT, and you can't be bothered with those.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Where did the jump from UKIP to the Nazi party come from? You can not and will not provide any evidence to justify that link because none exists. It is a preposterous statement and it beautifully illustrates your flawed judgement. I suggest that same unsound judgement has lead you to believe that the uk's future is best served within the EU.

it wasn't a jump. I was picking an example of something that people can find popular at a certain point in time, but looking back, or from the outside is crazy. It was an example, the fact you linked them to UKIP is your doing

 

[tillson]

So, that will be one UKIP member in the HofC then.

Tom

Yes, and what a travesty of democracy. Would you be happy to see us exit the EU with the Out side polling just 30% of the vote?

I may be wrong Tom, but I suspect that you would quite happily see democracy corrupted, manipulated and perverted if it meant that it delivered an outcome which suits your political leanings. I say this, because your post seems to relish the fact that 12.5% of the population get 1 MP to represent them in parliament, whereas 4.5% get 50+ MPs.

I think where you and I differ is that if we vote to remain in the EU, I will be disappointed, but I will accept it and try to accept the outcome. I have an uneasy notion that if we voted out, you would be a little too comfortable with the idea of corrupting or perverting the vote count in order to deliver an outcome which you desire. I suspect you would justify this in your mind with a kind of, "it's for their own good" attitude. They know not what they are doing, but I'm here to guide them to salvation!

 

[oldgroaner]

Where did the jump from UKIP to the Nazi party come from? You can not and will not provide any evidence to justify that link because none exists. It is a preposterous statement and it beautifully illustrates your flawed judgement. I suggest that same unsound judgement has lead you to believe that the uk's future is best served within the EU.

Equally of course you cannot actually prove the opposite, can you?
And as you are so fond of saying
". I suggest that same unsound judgement has lead you to believe that the uk's future is best served within the EU
You can not and will not provide any evidence to justify that link because none exists. It is a preposterous statement and it beautifully illustrates your flawed judgement."
Which is of course equally judgemental isn't it?

And may I remind you that Farage made a speech in the EU parliament publicly saying send the boats containing refugees back?
Now then what sort of party judges for it's own purposes that people are not really fleeing a war zone, but here for the benefits, because it judges them without trial?
This is not only against International law but could easily result in the deaths of innocent men women and children at the hands of their oppressors.
And you find the man not guilty of having Nazi tendencies?
Where is your evidence to support that?
Is he then Tory, labour, liberal or just a little over enthusiastic about sending people back possibly to death as they are a drain on resources?
He is a dangerous villain by whatever name you give him, or isn't he to you?

 

[tillson]

it wasn't a jump. I was picking an example of something that people can find popular at a certain point in time, but looking back, or from the outside is crazy. It was an example, the fact you linked them to UKIP is your doing

You were responding to my statement that UKIP is the third most popular political party in the UK, so you did in fact make that link. As I suspected, no evidence to support has been forthcoming.

 

[tillson]

Equally of course you cannot actually prove the opposite, can you?

oldgroaner, you don't really mean to suggest that anyone and everyone is guilty of any act you care to imagine unless they can prove otherwise?

For example, can you prove that you have never made love to a donkey whilst an Alsatian dog simultaneously licks your butt? If you are unable to disprove this, would it be fair to assume that it is a true account of your activity?

 

[oldgroaner]

And the most disturbing thing about the UKIP is that it's popularity is due to the fact that the Torys and new Labour have carefully and wilfully built up such a pack of appealing lies about the EU to avoid their own responsibility for failure they scared the public into flocking into the arms of the UKIP
Cameron must surely feel
"Behold the monster you've created" as fear of it made him offer this referendum to lie his way into office.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

I'm qualified to comment because I've worked in and with companies that trade within / across the EU and globally. I speak to experts (export manager at firms who turn over millions in global trade) and I've also done a lot of work an been effected by a whole raft of European law that's had a positive impact on lots of aspects of my work.

I have real problem with your use of the phrase "vested interest" its a big problem the leave campaign has had since day 1. If anyone comments that the UK should stay, the first cry is they are biased, or vested or simply shouldn't be sticking their nose in.

Everyone should be listening to the comments of the people this will effect, especially when we tell you that this will have a negative impact on the UK economically.

KTM please read my earlier post. I wasn't questioning your, ir Fleccs or OG's qualifications or experiences to have an informed opinion, I,m questioning all three of you in your assumptions nobody else has, especially those supporting Brexit. You list your experience as though its unique. It isn't. Thousands of folk have been trading within and without Europe who support out. ( I,ve been exporting to Norway, France and Japan since 1987.)

Why on earth do all 3 of you assume you are somehow more enlightened than folk wanting out ??? Your arguments are not difficult to understand,we got it about 3 weeks ago.!
And OG 's line of argument is plain barmy. Having to prove innocence of any accusation is not required by law and to have to disprove a link is probably impossible...how could anybody prove there isn't a link ???

 

[oldgroaner]

oldgroaner, you don't really mean to suggest that anyone and everyone is guilty of any act you care to imagine unless they can prove otherwise?

For example, can you prove that you have never made love to a donkey whilst an Alsatian dog simultaneously licks your butt? If you are unable to disprove this, would it be fair to assume that it is a true account of your activity?

You are not going to make such silly comparisons and expect to be taken seriously

This man stands guilty from his own words, didn't you watch the video?
Are you asserting then that you are unable to tell right from wrong? it is OK to send the boats with refugees back?
Well would you do it?

 

[flecc]

KTM please read my earlier post. I wasn't questioning your, ir Fleccs or OG's qualifications or experiences to have an informed opinion, I,m questioning all three of you in your assumptions nobody else has, especially those supporting Brexit.

Why on earth do all 3 of you assume you are somehow more enlightened than folk wanting out ???

When will you stop misrepresenting me?

I have never thought or believed that nobody else has an informed opinion. It's abundantly clear that very many Brexiters do have an informed opinion, but reach a different conclusion from that position.

I respect that.

But that doesn't stop me from correcting someone who tells a demonstrable lie about the EU to gain voting advantage.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

KTM please read my earlier post. I wasn't questioning your, ir Fleccs or OG's qualifications or experiences to have an informed opinion, I,m questioning all three of you in your assumptions nobody else has, especially those supporting Brexit. You list your experience as though its unique. It isn't. Thousands of folk have been trading within and without Europe who support out. ( I,ve been exporting to Norway, France and Japan since 1987.)

Why on earth do all 3 of you assume you are somehow more enlightened than folk wanting out ??? Your arguments are not difficult to understand,we got it about 3 weeks ago.!

And yet you still prefer your own view? great, so now what is your point?
We could equally respond with the question , why you have jumped to the conclusion you have that we don't think other people have an informed opinion, no doubt they do,
We just happen to disagree with the the viewpoint they hold
If your view is challenged there is no reason to assume you have been unfairly treated, simply put forward a convincing argument based on checkable and provable facts.

 

[BrendanJ]

And yet you still prefer your own view? great, so now what is your point?
We could equally respond with the question , why you have jumped to the conclusion you have that we don't think other people have an informed opinion, no doubt they do,
We just happen to disagree with the the viewpoint they hold
If your view is challenged there is no reason to assume you have been unfairly treated, simply put forward a convincing argument based on checkable and provable facts.

oJ
Your arrogance really knows no bounds
Why don't you take all of your check able and provable facts and make an appointment to see Mr Cameron. I am sure he will surely appreciate your help as he seems to be struggling, especially with the check able and provable facts.

 

[oldgroaner]

oJ
Your arrogance really knows no bounds
Why don't you take all of your check able and provable facts and make an appointment to see Mr Cameron. I am sure he will surely appreciate your help as he seems to be struggling, especially with the check able and provable facts.

Brendan they were supplied for the purpose of helping you, but you chose not to be helped which is a shame, because you really don't want to make the effort do you? but not unexpected, and you do seem to suffer from the very things you accuse me of don't you?
Here you are , some more facts to check
http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/
Enjoy!
Click a few of the links if you dare.
BTW who's oJ? if you want to insult me at least make the effort to get TWO letters right!
Or was that a demonstration of "Insight" you were talking about?

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Checkable and provable facts my arse. You,ve quoted subjective opininions and then assumed others haven't got IQ to understand your distorted reasoning.
If all this could be answered by these so called facts we wouldn't even be having referendum.
I,ve worked in and eith statistics for last 40 years and know full well figures are invariably chosen to prove a certain point. They can be made to say what you want them to..but like I said 3 weeks ago you seem to know mire than Mark Carney, my accountant, my bank manager, my wife ( an extremely high ranking civil servant, ( regional manager) who all know what they are talking about , but obviously less than OG and Flecc.
To really know what really will happen you need a crystal ball. I,m not repeating my reasons again. Just read posts from 3 weeks ago.
Go live in EU for 10 years, speak to folk in Berlin, Athens, and Greece and then decide.