Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

that will make the likely breakup of the union - with scotland (and probably wales) rejoining the EU after a brexit really quite ironic, leaving London carrying the can (of delusional nirvana brexiteers have such fantasies about)

We in London aren't worried Derf, we're not just in the EU. With well under half of our population being white British born and all 300 of the world's main languages spoken by all the nations living and working here, we are already in the Greater World.

And we like it and have no intention of changing it.
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[oldgroaner]

just know I don't want to live under it.

Under what? the system that gave you the holidays that we now enjoy, food standards that stop you being poisoned, and environmental protection aimed at that too and best of all prevented war in Europe?
Just what do you want not to be under?
The EU didn't create middle east wars sending millions across the sea to us
We did that ourselves remember?
And did either party you voted for make any attmept to control immigration, or make much of an effort to change hearts and minds in the EU parliament?
No instead it send a band of saboteurs there posing as MEPS who only wanted to use the EU as a cover for Government mistakes, and work to undermine it with lies and false rumours.

 

[trex]

 

[gray198]

Under what? the system that gave you the holidays that we now enjoy, food standards that stop you being poisoned, and environmental protection aimed at that too and best of all prevented war in Europe?
Just what do you want not to be under?
The EU didn't create middle east wars sending millions across the sea to us
We did that ourselves remember?
And did either party you voted for make any attmept to control immigration, or make much of an effort to change hearts and minds in the EU parliament?
No instead it send a band of saboteurs there posing as MEPS who only wanted to use the EU as a cover for Government mistakes, and work to undermine it with lies and false rumours.

Was talking about communism. Maybe very similar in some ways. Everybody being ruled by a remote elite who keep all the good stuff for themselves

 

[oldgroaner]

Was talking about communism. Maybe very similar in some ways. Everybody being ruled by a remote elite who keep all the good stuff for themselves

That's conservative rule!

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[oldgroaner]

the most pro EU is Edinburgh.
Other pro EU cities are: Oxford, Cambridge, Manchester, London, Bristol.

In general, the more afluent cities, the more pro EU.
People who vote out are usually people who have to compete with immigrants for jobs (not just EU immigranst, all immigrants), who can't see what the EU have done for them. Nothing to do with democracy, sovereignty or the economy.
like in this video, filmed a couple of days ago in Stoke on Trent. The boss of the pottery factory is pro EU, most of his workforce want out. It shows clearly the disconnect between voters and the labour MP (Ruth Smeeth) that they voted for. Sad really. The only way remain can get to his workforce is threatening them with higher taxes.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/brexit-will-hurt-your-city-labour-tells-core-voters-but-no-ones-listening

It's not a threat, it's a prophecy.

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[gray198]

That's conservative rule!

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OG maybe it is but at least we have the option of voting them out. The British system is by no means perfect and we do indeed have a ruling class who look after themselves and their mates, and that is across all parties. But we do have some element of accountability. Not so with the EU which seems to be a giant gravy train for a lot of failed politicians (Kinnock's etc). What's the betting that dodgy Dave ends up getting a nice cushy Eu job if we vote to stay?

 

[oldgroaner]

OG maybe it is but at least we have the option of voting them out. The British system is by no means perfect and we do indeed have a ruling class who look after themselves and their mates, and that is across all parties. But we do have some element of accountability. Not so with the EU which seems to be a giant gravy train for a lot of failed politicians (Kinnock's etc). What's the betting that dodgy Dave ends up getting a nice cushy Eu job if we vote to stay?

You also have the choice of voting on the EU parliament too, or have you forgotten that ?

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[flecc]

Not so with the EU which seems to be a giant gravy train for a lot of failed politicians (Kinnock's etc).

So what, why resent their good luck? If we took their entire incomes with expenses for a year and then divided it up among all 500 millions in the EU, what would each of us get? Pennies?

This is the sort of complaint against the EU that has no value, I'm all in favour of people getting good incomes.
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[trex]

OG maybe it is but at least we have the option of voting them out. The British system is by no means perfect and we do indeed have a ruling class who look after themselves and their mates, and that is across all parties. But we do have some element of accountability. Not so with the EU which seems to be a giant gravy train for a lot of failed politicians (Kinnock's etc). What's the betting that dodgy Dave ends up getting a nice cushy Eu job if we vote to stay?

only in theory. In practice, only two parties can control our Parliament. Brexiters may vote for ukip but ukip can't command a majority at Westminster.
You have more chance being represented fairly in the European Parliament than in Westminster because the EU has a more democratic electoral system. The EU has a better model of goverment, for it has to deal with 28 countries speaking different languages.

 

[trex]

It's not a threat, it's a prophecy.

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i's not going to happen though.
if the economic shock is severe, then Osborne has only to abandon his goal of achieving budget surplus in 2020 or 2021.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG maybe it is but at least we have the option of voting them out. The British system is by no means perfect and we do indeed have a ruling class who look after themselves and their mates, and that is across all parties. But we do have some element of accountability. Not so with the EU which seems to be a giant gravy train for a lot of failed politicians (Kinnock's etc). What's the betting that dodgy Dave ends up getting a nice cushy Eu job if we vote to stay?

And how does that differ from the cushy directorships and consultancies politicians here find after being an MP?

 

[trex]

the weather forecast for June 23 seems to favour remain.
The bookies still favour remain 62% against 38% for leave.

 

[trex]

I feel a bit sorry for Osborne. He's worked hard to improve the economy just to see Brexiters use that against him and his side. He's now doomed after firing the big gun. The point is the UK's economy need 100,000 - 150,000 EU migrants a year, in construction, old people care homes, hospitality, agriculture etc whoever wins the referendum.

 

[derf]

We in London aren't worried Derf, we're not just in the EU. With well under half of our population being white British born and all 300 of the world's main languages spoken by all the nations living and working here, we are already in the Greater World.

And we like it and have no intention of changing it.
.

there is this
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/f44e8a6e-2f2a-11e6-bf8d-26294ad519fc.html
to be fair i feel as ambivalent about it all as everyone else, both sides seem deeply insincere and self serving (this ft article saying big corporations want in and smaller businesses out to escape eu directives doesnt do much to make one feel any different). But i suspect a brexit may involve an even bigger hit to teh uk economy than osbourne lets on.

 

[oldgroaner]

there is this
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/f44e8a6e-2f2a-11e6-bf8d-26294ad519fc.html
to be fair i feel as ambivalent about it all as everyone else, both sides seem deeply insincere and self serving (this ft article saying big corporations want in and smaller businesses out to escape eu directives doesnt do much to make one feel any different). But i suspect a brexit may involve an even bigger hit to teh uk economy than osbourne lets on.

That is my fear too, and also the degree of anger that the public will feel if Brexit doesn't turn out to be all sunshine, Union Jacks and Street Parties.
Aready the FTSE index has lost £100 Billion pounds, just on uncertainty!

 

[oldgroaner]

I feel a bit sorry for Osborne. He's worked hard to improve the economy just to see Brexiters use that against him and his side. He's now doomed after firing the big gun. The point is the UK's economy need 100,000 - 150,000 EU migrants a year, in construction, old people care homes, hospitality, agriculture etc whoever wins the referendum.

And inevitably they will still come after Brexit (as they must) and to rising public anger and resentment at no change, breeding grounds for dangerous politicians to gain support for extremist policies.

 

[trex]

for remain to win, labour must come out to tell their voters now that if they don't want to vote for remain, they must stay at home and not vote with the tories' right.

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Independent

Draw your own conclusions from this!

 

[flecc]

there is this
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/f44e8a6e-2f2a-11e6-bf8d-26294ad519fc.html

True, but I'm unconcerned since we will cope as we've always done. London has hundreds of years of success and has reinvented itself many times. London now is totally different than the one I was born in, just as successful but in very different ways.

And socially very different too, in my view even nicer now, thanks to the diversity and scale of immigration.
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